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 Post subject: Re: Multiple Home Invaders; Birdshot Poor HD Choice
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 7:44 am 
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Finally found the Houston home invasion / shotgun story. But now I am seeing red flags.

It is currently unknown if the three dead men were targeting the mobile home. Fox News has reported, "Three would be robbers were shot and killed Monday after being confronted in a Texas home by a teen with a shotgun... The owner of the getaway vehicle lived around the corner in Channelview, Fox 26 Houston reported. It was unclear if he was one of those killed. The Houston Chronicle identified the teen with the shotgun as 19-year-old Yair Gallegos."

I wonder if the teenaged shotgunner recognized the three invaders? I wonder if drugs and drug money were involved? After all, why else target a home with wheels? I wonder if Yair Gallegos is here legally? I wonder if drug cartels are suspected?

I wonder if thetruthaboutguns was way premature to proclaim, "There was apparently a fourth criminal involved who fled, but police are trying to piece the situation (and probably what’s left of the three home invaders) together. Here’s hoping the wounded home owner makes a full recovery. This has been another successful defensive gun use brought to you by your natural, Second Amendment guaranteed right to keep and bear arms."

CBS Austin on Monday, 23 Dec 2019, wrote:
Resident kills three intruders during home invasion near Houston

Three males are dead and a male resident is injured after an attempted home invasion near Houston on Monday.

KTRK reports the attempted burglary happened at a trailer home in Channelview [Texas] located in the 1800 block of Amie Michele Lane around 10 a.m.

According to deputies, two men were inside a home when they heard commotion coming from outside. One of the men looked out and saw three suspects dressed in all black trying to break in.

The man exited his room with a shotgun and opened fire on the suspects, shooting and killing three of them.

KTRK reports that the resident was also shot, and was taken to the hospital in serious condition.

"I want to just warn people that if it turns out that you're breaking into somebody's home, regardless of the circumstances, that eventually you're gonna end up dead or you're gonna end up in jail," Harris County Sheriff Ed Gonzalez said.


Darran Simon with CNN on 23 Dec 2019 wrote:
A Texas resident killed three people in an apparent home invasion, sheriff says

A suburban Houston resident grabbed a shotgun and killed three men who broke into his home early Monday, authorities said.

Harris County Sheriff Ed Gonzalez said a mobile home resident saw the men, who were dressed in dark clothing, get out of a car near the home in the 1800 block of Amie Michele Ln in Channelview [Texas]. The resident believed he saw a gun in one man's hand, Gonzalez said.

While the first resident hid, the suspects encountered a second man, who came out of his room with a shotgun, Gonzalez said.

"It appears there was some type of gunfire exchange," Gonzalez said. "The one with the shotgun was able to shoot at the three males, and they were all pronounced deceased here at the scene."

The resident who opened fire was hit once [sic, twice]. He was being treated at a hospital, the sheriff said.

Gonzalez said authorities believe at least one suspect was armed with a pistol. It appears the men were committing a home invasion or attempted burglary, he said.

Channelview is about 15 miles east of Houston.


Tim Stelloh with NBC News on 23 Dec 2019 wrote:
Texas homeowner shoots and kills 3 with shotgun during break-in

The homeowner was struck in the leg and back in an exchange of gunfire, authorities said.

A Texas homeowner shot and killed three people who he said were trying to break into his trailer home, authorities said.

The homeowner was injured in the exchange of gunfire Monday and remained hospitalized, Harris County Sheriff Ed Gonzalez told reporters.

Gonzalez said the homeowner, who he did not identify, opened fire on the men with a shotgun after they entered the trailer in the Houston suburb of Channelview on Monday morning.

A witness told authorities that there may have been a fourth person who fled before the group entered the home, Gonzalez said. Investigators have not yet spoken to the person.

A man who identified himself as a cousin of the homeowner told NBC affiliate KPRC that his relative was shot in the leg and back. He spent Monday in surgery, Cesar Lopez said.

Officials said it was unclear why the men had targeted the home or what they wanted, but that a car that may have been theirs was left outside running.

They could have been “planning to break in and make a quick getaway,” Gonzalez said.



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Last edited by wfb18 on Sat Dec 28, 2019 8:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Multiple Home Invaders; Birdshot Poor HD Choice
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 7:55 am 
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There is a huge body of reliable information established by the F.B.I., Duncan MacPherson, and perhaps most notably of all—Dr. Martin Fackler. According to Fackler-IWBA, rapid incapacitation is a function of damaging or destroying tissues that are critical to an attacker’s immediate survival. To reliably accomplish this task, the bullet should be capable of penetrating deeply enough to reach and pass through vital structures in the body from any angular aspect. This capability is called adequate penetration.

Fackler-IWBA recommends a minimum of 12 inches of penetration. This 12 inch minimum penetration performance guideline is meant to ensure that the bullet has adequate penetration potential to reach and disrupt vital organs. The 12 inch standard is the prevailing barometer used by the F.B.I., Dr. Fackler, and other reputable sources. Anything less than 12 inches is insufficient and inadequate. Not understanding this has already cost too many people their lives. Bird shot is not an acceptable self-defense shotshell round. To believe that it is could get you killed, and that has been the sad outcome in too many incidents. The appropriate value for minimum penetration depth has generally been assumed to be 12 inches ever since the first FBI wound ballistics meeting in 1987.

The Firearms Tactical Institute reports:

"Number 1 buck is the smallest diameter shot that reliably and consistently penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances. A standard 2 ¾-inch 12 gauge shotshell contains 16 pellets of #1 buck. The total combined cross sectional area of the 16 pellets is 1.13 square inches. Compared to the total combined cross sectional area of the nine pellets in a standard #00 (double-aught) buck shotshell (0.77 square inches), the # 1 buck shotshell has the capacity to produce over 30 percent more potentially effective wound trauma. In all shotshell loads, number 1 buckshot produces more potentially effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck. In addition, number 1 buck is less likely to over-penetrate and exit an attacker's body."

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 Post subject: Re: Multiple Home Invaders; Birdshot Poor HD Choice
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 10:06 am 
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The Houston Chronicle reporters wrote a much lengthier story and it looks like they had some of my concerns. They made no accusations, but they asked certain questions as though they were trying to resolve potential problems with the initial investigation. IMO, if Yair Gallegos and his roommate were involved in felonious criminal activity and anyone died as a result, then they could both be charged with felony murder and they would be ineligible for self-defense pleas.

Jay R. Jordan and Olivia P. Tallet with Houston Chronicle on 23 Dec 2019 wrote:
3 burglars shot dead after breaking into Channelview home, sheriff says

Three would-be burglars are dead after a Channelview resident confronted them with a shotgun as they entered his home Monday, according to Harris County Sheriff Ed Gonzalez.

The incident unfolded when three men backed into the driveway of a mobile home in the 1800 block of Amie Michele Lane off Sheldon Road near Wood Road sometime Monday morning, Gonzalez said. One of two residents inside the home spotted the three men exiting the car and walking toward the home.

Gonzalez said the resident told detectives that he saw at least one of the three men armed with a gun, so he hid inside the house.

The three men entered the home, although it was not immediately clear if they forced their way in or simply walked in, Gonzalez said. That’s when the second resident, hearing the commotion, exited a room armed with a shotgun and opened fire on the three men inside the house, killing them all where they stood, Gonzalez said.

Gonzalez said the dead men appeared to be in their 20s.

One of the suspected burglars managed to shoot back at the armed resident during the gunfire, Gonzalez said. According to family members, he was taken to Memorial Hermann hospital where he remains in serious condition.

“We are sad and dismayed, but thank God we are not the ones losing the life of our son,” said Lino Pérez., stepfather of Yair Gallegos, and speaking on behalf of the family including Gallegos’ mother, María Guadalupe Gallegos. “I am like his father because I have been with him since he was 4 years old,” he said.

The couple live with their two other children in the same block. Pérez said he was already at work as a mechanic when a neighbor called him “saying that some young guys entered into the property” where Yair Gallegos lives with a roommate, “and that there was a fight going on there.”

“I talked to my wife to go see what was going on there, but by the time she got there… the fight was over, the three guys dead and my son wounded,” Pérez said, adding, “most people would agree with me in that this was a matter of survival, it was those guys who enter the house, or my son.”

César López, a cousin of Gallegos who lives two houses away from him, was also already at work on Monday when friends in the neighborhood called to check on him.

“They were worried about me because they heard gunshots next to my home,” Lopez said. He immediately went back to the neighborhood and learned that “they were arguing at the door, they tried to get in, armed.”

Lopez said the argument made him believe that his cousin or the roommate could have known someone among the intruders.
But María Guadalupe Gallegos “said she did not recognize anyone among the dead.”

Both Lopez and Pérez said she provided first aid to her son, including applying a tourniquet to contain bleeding from one of his legs.

At mid-afternoon Monday, María Guadalupe Gallegos was still at the scene with the police.

While Pérez said he didn’t know all the medical details, the family is more concerned about the potential consequences of a gunshot wound to their son’s spine.

Neighbor Alberto Martinez said he didn’t hear any shooting from his home, about six or seven houses away from the crime scene. He said he and his wife know Gallegos’ parents and that “the family, they are really good people.”

However, Martinez said he has doubts about the authorities’ version of the crime.

“They say it may have been a robbery. I don’t think it was a robbery. It looks more like, I don’t know, revenge or something like that,” Martinez said. “Those boys had nothing of value in that house. It wouldn’t be the house that a thief would choose to steal in this neighborhood.”


Regardless of the kind of crime, neighbors were surprised that a crime took place in their community.

“I have never seen a crime happening in this neighborhood in the five years I have lived here, let alone a shooting,” said Margarito Rodriguez, a construction worker who lives in the same block. “People here are good, many work in construction. This is a good neighborhood. I am really surprised.”

Gonzalez initially tweeted that there were four suspected burglars and that the fourth was wounded and hospitalized but later clarified that there were only three suspects inside the home, all of whom were killed. There may have been a fourth suspect outside, but no one was found when deputies arrived, Gonzalez said.

The car, believed to belong to the suspected burglars, was left running in the driveway as detectives combed over the evidence inside the house.

“Having three dead bodies inside a home is not very common,” Gonzalez said, adding that his detectives are working to confirm the timeline.

A grand jury will decide if Gallegos will be charged.

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 Post subject: Re: Multiple Home Invaders; Birdshot Poor HD Choice
PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:40 pm 
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Removed by poster, not sure what the point is.


Last edited by DBrevit on Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Multiple Home Invaders; Birdshot Poor HD Choice
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:41 am 
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You could not have possibly read this thread or you would not have such a high opinion of using birdshot for HD. Sadly this thread is twice as long as it should be because other people also missed the point. Criminals are teaching each other to not take chances and to use a crew of intruders to invade a home and grab firearms. As the OP I politely request that you restrain from posting anything else on this thread for a month to give you time to understand my rebuttal. And I add that the Federal Ammunition 2008 Shotshell Data Book heavy clothing visuals do not support your gel tests with birdshot and T-shirt plus jacket.

Neither LE132-00 nor LE132-1B nor birdshot (oh hell no) can reliably penetrate leather motorcycle jackets. Only three pellets of LE132-00 made it through the "heavy clothing" and into the calibrated gelatin from 10 feet. Three pellets! From 10 feet! And not nearly through as realistic a barrier as a leather motorcycle jacket! And that's why I have a mixed flat of Federal PB127-RS and PB127-LRS Truball rifled slugs. It's not the odds, it's the stakes.

wfb18 on 28 Dec 2015 wrote:
A thread here included this link which made me question whether LE132-1B can reliably penetrate leather jackets.

We had a saying here concerning preconceived HD scenarios, that it's not the odds, it's the stakes. It is wrong to limit preparation when the odds of a particular scenario happening seems unlikely, because the stakes of losing a gunfight are so high. Assuming 15 pellets of LE132-1B will penetrate to the FBI standard depends on the BG wearing light clothing. It would be wrong to assume that the odds that the BG will be huge or wearing a leather jacket or both seems unlikely. It's not the odds, it's the stakes.

In the linked thread, two specific gunfights show that LE132-00 is iffy against leather jackets, so LE132-1B would be even more iffy.


jamtmiller on another forum wrote:
In 2008 I was involved in my one and only shooting. Approximately 16 yards with department issued Winchester Ranger 9 pellet low recoil shotgun rounds. The suspect was wearing a leather motorcycle jacket and I am told three to four of the pellets were found under the jacket, but on top of the skin when treated at the scene.

This of course made me very nervous and I purchased Federal PFC154-00 to keep in my own shotgun, with Federal Truball slugs as backup. The remainder of the low recoil pellets worked as planned.


The Winchester pellets are not copper-plated like LE132-00. While at about 16 yards all 9 of the 00 pellets penetrated a leather motorcycle jacket, 3 or 4 pellets did not penetrate the skin.

Keith on another forum wrote:
I've read glowing commentary from shotgunners who seem to believe that the tight patterns of FliteControl "00" and "#1" buck loads now makes their buckshot-loaded gauge a 40 or 50 yard fighting weapon.

But, I'm not sure that the reduced recoil FliteControl buck loads have the retained energy at 40+ yards to do more than just poke nicely grouped holes in target cardboard. About a month ago [Sep 2012], a local police agency here got into a gunfight with a murder suspect. Two of the officers involved had 870 shotguns loaded with issued Federal LE132 9-pellet low-recoil 00-buck. A third officer had a 20-inch barreled AR-15 loaded with some kind of 55-grain ammo. The fight occurred at about 35 to 40 yards distance.

The armed murder suspect was shot into submission in just seconds. At the ER, the bad guy had a shattered hand, and one of his femur bones was so completely pulverized that the doctors reportedly amputated his leg. As you would expect, that was a result of .223 rifle impacts.

However, when the paramedics peeled the suspect's cheap leather coat off of him, numerous 00-buck pellets fell out of the leather material onto the floor of the ambulance. Let that sink in a couple seconds. The low-recoil buckshot had failed to fully penetrate the suspect's outer garment, a leather coat, and the pellets were embedded and stuck in the material.

We were saddled with #4 buck here from 1977 through 1988, and it just doesn't penetrate well enough on torso hits, especially when winter clothing and really big bad guys were involved.


Even with hardened copper-plated pellets, at 35 - 40 yards no LE132-00 pellets penetrated the cheap leather coat, not necessarily a leather motorcycle jacket. So LE132-1B could not penetrate the coat either.

The premise that LE132-1B will produce 15 separate wound channels while LE132-00 can only produce 9 wound channels actually depends on light clothing and fairly close distance. I have a flat of LE127-00 and almost 2 flats of LE132-00. I no longer see justification in buying LE132-1B. It's not the odds, it's the stakes.

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 Post subject: Re: Multiple Home Invaders; Birdshot Poor HD Choice
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:10 pm 
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Removed by poster, not sure what the point is.


Last edited by DBrevit on Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Multiple Home Invaders; Birdshot Poor HD Choice
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:50 pm 
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wfb18 wrote:
I decided to not post this in the current birdshot thread, where it would just get lost. Which thread? That's right, there seems to always be a current birdshot thread. There were two separate home invasions within 50 miles of here last year and each homeowner was attacked by five men.


If you are forced to defend your life and / or the lives of loved ones, and there is no other alternative, you need to stop the threat. In what would be literally a life or death situation, scrimping on proper ammo is called negligence.

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 Post subject: Re: Multiple Home Invaders; Birdshot Poor HD Choice
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:02 pm 
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Holly Smoke, just noticed this thread has been going for 8 years.


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 Post subject: Re: Multiple Home Invaders; Birdshot Poor HD Choice
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:00 pm 
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wfb18 wrote:
... We absolutely do not want to wound a home invader because he will be dangerously infuriated to harm us and our families. The goal is not to kill the home invader but rather to stop him from further assaults. When attacked with unlawful lethal force, do not shoot your opponent until YOU think he's done fighting; keep shooting him until HE thinks he's done fighting.

If wall penetration is a concern, then the answer is not smaller pellets, but rather the safety rule, Know your target and what is beyond it. Do not pull the trigger until you know that you will hit your target.

This thread is for the reporting of home invasions near us that had multiple attackers, because these invasions very rarely receive more than local reporting. We need to emphasize how homes are attacked prevalently by multiple home invaders who are determined to steal firearms. Let us resist the temptation to ruin this thread with distractions. Let us rather use this thread to keep each other informed. Thank you......

Let's see if more details are available of "the" Houston home invasion. Google. There it is. Wait a minute. What is this? Things don't match. Hey, this must be a different home invasion.

That is correct, another home invasion that only got local attention and never got a headline in Kentucky or Kansas. We are watching a national magic trick, distracting the attention of the sheeple away from the real issue, which is, keep the sheeple from thinking, OMG, maybe we ought to buy a gun?......

Door-to-door assassins. Yawn, not national news. Nothing here, sheeple. Move along.

Thank you, DBrevit, but this is NOT a birdshot thread and I am determined to keep it on-topic.

The man referenced managed to get 70 years old and he cannot pretend that he never knew that 1) he is responsible for the safety of his wife, or 2) that some people protect themselves with firearms, or 3) that dogs like to bark at strangers, or 4) that motion detectors and burglar alarms have been invented. It is pathetic that he slept through the intrusion of three criminals into his home and he did not know that they were inside until he got pistol-whipped in his easy chair. Shotgun training alone will not solve that man's problems, nor will his choice of ammunition. His best defensive weapon is between his ears, and in his case, he should start with Q-tips.

Another old saying here in the Basement is, Mindset > Tactics > Skills > Gear. Repeat, Mindset > Tactics > Skills > Gear.

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I choose to carry because I believe that I'm responsible for my loved ones, including ensuring that I'm available to come home to and for them. And the world we live in can be a very bad place on any given day. But, as has already been stated, training is critical and it teaches that constant mental awareness is foremost crucial to avoid getting into situations where you become prey and a victim. Mindset, Tactics, Skills, Gear: in that order.

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 Post subject: Re: Multiple Home Invaders; Birdshot Poor HD Choice
PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:12 am 
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My $.02... Everybody saying that a kill shot with birdshot (or a .410, or a .22, or a golf club, or a sharp stick...) is possible are completely right. They are possible. But when it comes to protecting the lives of myself and my loved ones, I want to prepare the best I can. That means choosing tools that make success probable, not just possible. I seriously doubt that anyone who can manage to own a shotgun and buy shells to go bird hunting cannot afford to buy a single box of 00 buck for the purpose of self defense. If you just don't care about preparing self defense and then find yourself pressed into a SD situation, yes, any gun at hand with any ammo is better than nothing. But if you have any aspirations of preparedness, and we wouldn't be posting in the "Tactical/HD Shotguns" forum if we didn't, then intentionally preparing with a less effective load is willful ignorance, if not willful negligence.

As for the multi-person home invasions. My HD preparations start with really good lighting outside. I have also "hardened" all of the entry points in my home with lock, hinge and door frame reinforcements. This sort of thing isn't difficult to do, and if it prevents or even slows the bad guys from getting inside, then it gives me a better chance at survival. I just added a video doorbell that lets me see what's going on outside my home and gives me motion alerts when anything enters my yard or driveway. I do plan on expanding the system with a few more cameras. Inside my house, it's never 100% dark. I have LED lights set at "night light" levels throughout the house so I can identify friend or foe easily. I know the safe points/pathways/choke points through my home and where I would post up and wait if an intruder made it inside. If for some reason I couldn't get to my phone, I have voice command nodes in every room that I could use to contact the police. Finally, I have weapons safely and strategically concealed throughout the house so that I would never have to go far to be able to fight back. Hopefully, I never need to rely on any of these preparations, but I'd rather have them and not need them than need them and not have them.


Last edited by TheWarhammer on Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:00 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Multiple Home Invaders; Birdshot Poor HD Choice
PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:59 am 
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Thank you for such a great and thoughtful reply. Such on-topic posts are greatly appreciated. Good luck, sir.

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 Post subject: Re: Multiple Home Invaders; Birdshot Poor HD Choice
PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:19 am 
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Thanks, wfb18.

FWIW, I wish I could give proper credit to the guy who got me thinking about preparing my house, not just my guns, for the worst. It was on another forum and his suggestions were something of an epiphany for me. Do everything you can to make your home less of a target, then make it a difficult target, then make sure you can defend it. Hopefully, the first two preparations will make the last one superfluous.

Some things that I started doing differently...

  • I load guns into my vehicle for range trips while the car is in the garage. That way the neighbors don't get to see my gun collection. If I can't do that, the guns are transported in bags that don't obviously look like a gun case.
  • Even on nice, windows-down days, I turn down my car stereo before I enter the neighborhood. There's no need to attract attention to how good my car stereo is. (Plus it doesn't bother any of the neighbors.)
  • When I buy anything like a TV, etc... the box gets cut up inside the house and the pieces are discretely disposed of in the trash. An empty box for an 80" TV on the curb is like a "steal me" billboard to bad guys.
  • When mowing, gardening, etc... The garage door gets closed between tool runs. I don't leave it open for hours so that everyone can see what I have in there.
  • I used to turn the porch lights turn off around 10 pm to "save electricity." Now, I keep my front and back yards lit up all night long. With modern LED bulbs, that savings would be negligible anyway.
  • I used to turn off every light in the house at bedtime. Now I leave strategic lights turned on dimly, so I can see if anyone is there easily.

I'm sure there is more, and I'm still learning, but I feel better taking steps, even if they're small steps.


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 Post subject: Re: Multiple Home Invaders; Birdshot Poor HD Choice
PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:24 am 
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Warhammer,
You need to move


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 Post subject: Re: Multiple Home Invaders; Birdshot Poor HD Choice
PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:43 am 
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WFB 18,
I still don't get the correlation between multiple attackers and bird shot.
If multiple thieves have formulated an attack plan, birdshot would be the last thing to worry about.

I'm still fine with bird shot within HD distance at 10/15 feet the shot is still in the shot cup, 492 grains of lead still in one mass. I have other ammo but I do not fear using 11/8 oz #5 or #6 at 1200+ fps.

If your point was situational awareness, home and personal security, shortfalls of birdshot at distance greater than 10 yards for home defense, you should have started with that.
No need to be upset if somebody wants to use something you would not use, more than one way to get something done.

P.S. as this thread is 8 years old next week, has the trend you noted on the first post continued or dropped off (everyone go back to page one and read it).


Last edited by DBrevit on Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Multiple Home Invaders; Birdshot Poor HD Choice
PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:46 am 
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DBrevit wrote:
Warhammer,
You need to move


LOL! Naaa... I live in a good neighborhood in a sleepy little town. That's the first step... a good location. All of the rest just adds to the safety. If the only thing all of the preparations ever do is help me sleep at night, then they're worth it. But if they end up stopping a break in or giving me the crucial time I need to put down an intruder(s) and protect my family... :B3


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 Post subject: Re: Multiple Home Invaders; Birdshot Poor HD Choice
PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2020 1:44 pm 
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evbutler wrote:

The only advice I will offer is that you have in the chamber the load you last hunted with.


Hmm...

That would be my favorite hog huntin' load. That big ole 12 bore pump gun has shells loaded with three 22 gauge hard cast 315 grain buckshot pellets, pushing 'bout 1075 fps. Those will bust through just about any hog - leaving big holes going in and big holes going out.


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 Post subject: Re: Multiple Home Invaders; Birdshot Poor HD Choice
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 7:12 pm 
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RMc wrote:
evbutler wrote:


That would be my favorite hog huntin' load. That big ole 12 bore pump gun has shells loaded with three 22 gauge hard cast 315 grain buckshot pellets, pushing 'bout 1075 fps. Those will bust through just about any hog - leaving big holes going in and big holes going out.


Where do you get these? Are they from Dixie slugs that used to have a sub-forum here? I thought they went out of business.

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 Post subject: Re: Multiple Home Invaders; Birdshot Poor HD Choice
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:35 pm 
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Ezra Smack wrote:

Where do you get these?


These 12 bore shotshells, loaded with three 22 gauge hard cast 315 grain buckshot pellets, are pressure tested handloads.




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