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 Post subject: Re: Multiple Home Invaders; Birdshot Poor HD Choice
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:43 pm 
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Some years back there was an article in a gun magazine where the author researched twenty years of "The armed citizen" page from the NRA magazine American Rifleman. This page contains a dozen or so news blurbs about American citizens using guns in self defense and is published every month. Usually it involves home invasions, armed robberies and muggings. In all those stories he could not find even one case where the victim had to reload while engaging the bad guys.

Real criminals flee when they meet armed resistance.



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 Post subject: Re: Multiple Home Invaders; Birdshot Poor HD Choice
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:49 pm 
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Thank you for your outstanding posts, gentlemen.

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 Post subject: Re: Multiple Home Invaders; Birdshot Poor HD Choice
PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:13 am 
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Ezra Smack wrote:
Some years back there was an article in a gun magazine where the author researched twenty years of "The armed citizen" page from the NRA magazine American Rifleman. This page contains a dozen or so news blurbs about American citizens using guns in self defense and is published every month. Usually it involves home invasions, armed robberies and muggings. In all those stories he could not find even one case where the victim had to reload while engaging the bad guys.

Real criminals flee when they meet armed resistance.


You can trust your life to that logic if you want, l don't. Dead criminals don't flee and they don't continue their criminal activity another time. Wounding rather than killing results in the possibility of 12 liberals allowing you to give all your assets to the criminal to compensate for his injuries. After all he ment you no harm, just wanted a little money for a fix so he could feel good about himself.

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 Post subject: Re: Multiple Home Invaders; Birdshot Poor HD Choice
PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 4:13 pm 
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Oldfarmer wrote:
Ezra Smack wrote:
Some years back there was an article in a gun magazine where the author researched twenty years of "The armed citizen" page from the NRA magazine American Rifleman. This page contains a dozen or so news blurbs about American citizens using guns in self defense and is published every month. Usually it involves home invasions, armed robberies and muggings. In all those stories he could not find even one case where the victim had to reload while engaging the bad guys.

Real criminals flee when they meet armed resistance.


You can trust your life to that logic if you want, l don't. Dead criminals don't flee and they don't continue their criminal activity another time. Wounding rather than killing results in the possibility of 12 liberals allowing you to give all your assets to the criminal to compensate for his injuries. After all he ment you no harm, just wanted a little money for a fix so he could feel good about himself.


I really don't get your point. The empirical evidence is that in a real home invasions, the bad guys run when the shooting starts. Criminals are not likely to dig in and fight to the last man so that the lone survivor can claim your valuables. As I said in my first post on the topic:

" BTW, real criminals are not like professional soldiers who are willing to sacrifice themselves for the success of the mission. After you shoot the first one they will scatter like chickens. None of them are willing to make the ultimate sacrifice and take a bullet so that their surviving buddies can walk off with your big screen TV."

I suppose that if you are young and fast enough you might be able to chase a few of them down and shoot them in the back but that might not look good in court. As a civilian you can only shoot people in the privacy of your own home unless they are actually attacking you. Fleeing suspects no longer pose danger once they make it outside. In a few states you might get away with shooting a fleeing suspect to stop him from carrying off your property but not if he was just trying to run away.

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 Post subject: Re: Multiple Home Invaders; Birdshot Poor HD Choice
PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 5:50 pm 
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You trust that criminals are far more logical and predictable than I give them credit for being. I wish you luck in defense of yourself and loved ones. Any weapon is better than no weapon.

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 Post subject: Re: Multiple Home Invaders; Birdshot Poor HD Choice
PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:12 am 
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Ezra Smack wrote:
Oldfarmer wrote:
Ezra Smack wrote:
I really don't get your point.



Maybe the most ridiculous statement I’ve ever seen on a gun board.

The point was crystal clear.

Open your mind.

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 Post subject: Re.Birdshot Poor HD Choice. #4 Buckshot only
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 2:14 am 
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#Buck! It’s like getting hit with about a dozen .22s simultaneously. Less wall penetration than 00 buck.


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 Post subject: Re: Multiple Home Invaders; Birdshot Poor HD Choice
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:31 pm 
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Rich, what size buckshot are you referring to? You left the size out.

Thanks for you post!

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 Post subject: Re: Multiple Home Invaders; Birdshot Poor HD Choice
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:30 pm 
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Yes the heading is small. #4 buckshot! .24 caliber. 27 shot @1300fps in a 2 3/4” shell
Max distance in my home is 30 ft. I’ll be patterning Federal’s load at that distance with a cylinder or IC choke soon


Last edited by rich5674 on Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Multiple Home Invaders; Birdshot Poor HD Choice
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 5:16 pm 
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Ezra Smack wrote:
Some years back there was an article in a gun magazine where the author researched twenty years of "The armed citizen" page from the NRA magazine American Rifleman. This page contains a dozen or so news blurbs about American citizens using guns in self defense and is published every month. Usually it involves home invasions, armed robberies and muggings. In all those stories he could not find even one case where the victim had to reload while engaging the bad guys.



Not true: it was a 5 year analysis, not 20 years, and reloading was done three times. The article is by Claude Werner. The maximum number of shots fired was 20.

http://gunssavelives.net/self-defense/a ... ta-tables/

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 Post subject: Re: Multiple Home Invaders; Birdshot Poor HD Choice
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:00 pm 
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rich5674, you acknowledged that you accidentally left "4" out of "#Buck!". And you pointed out that "4" was included although small when you modified the heading of my thread to "Re.Birdshot Poor HD Choice. #4 Buckshot only".

We simply overlook typographical errors here, but the real and pressing issue is your word only. A ten year history of this HD forum recommends 00 buckshot for HD. Moreover there is a ten year history of endorsing the FBI standard that #1 buckshot are the very smallest pellets that can reliably penetrate 12" into calibrated ballistic gelatin.

The true error of recommending "#4 Buckshot only" for HD is found in our use of #4 buckshot in Vietnam to wound ambushers, thus subtracting two of them from the immediate battle whenever a comrade was forced to drag another back out of the firefight. The foe realized that often as not they could run right through 00 buckshot, so our shot gunners on point with spreader chokes deliberately wounded ambushers with #4 buckshot.

We absolutely do not want to wound a home invader because he will be dangerously infuriated to harm us and our families. The goal is not to kill the home invader but rather to stop him from further assaults. When attacked with unlawful lethal force, do not shoot your opponent until YOU think he's done fighting; keep shooting him until HE thinks he's done fighting.

If wall penetration is a concern, then the answer is not smaller pellets, but rather the safety rule, Know your target and what is beyond it. Do not pull the trigger until you know that you will hit your target.

This thread is for the reporting of home invasions near us that had multiple attackers, because these invasions very rarely receive more than local reporting. We need to emphasize how homes are attacked prevalently by multiple home invaders who are determined to steal firearms. Let us resist the temptation to ruin this thread with distractions. Let us rather use this thread to keep each other informed. Thank you.

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 Post subject: Re: Multiple Home Invaders; Birdshot Poor HD Choice
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 4:49 pm 
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No insult was meant to anyone about the small #4 in the heading. It was my oversight and mistake.
I saw a gel test of #4 buck from 10 ft on You Tube. Penetration was 10-15” with all 27 pellets in the block. I can’t imagine anyone surviving a hit like that or continuing a attack. Maximum distance in my house is 35 feet. Will pattern test tomorrow.
The info on findings in Vietnam are interesting. I didn’t know they tried anything but 00 buck. I’m interested to know the average contact distance was.
I am listening to all ideas but I’d be hard to convince that anyone taking a shot to the torso with #4 will continue aggression. If they live I doubt they’d make it to the hospital.
I do have a good supply of #1 for indoors and 00 for outside.
PS. I’m shooting for center mass, to stop the threat. Not to wound
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/shotg ... us-rounds/
My conclusion from this and gel test videos on you tube indicate 10-15" penetration after layers of denim. Better hit probability than 00. Thats all I got


Last edited by rich5674 on Sun Nov 24, 2019 9:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Multiple Home Invaders; Birdshot Poor HD Choice
PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2019 1:38 pm 
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rich5674 wrote:
... The info on findings in Vietnam are interesting. I didn’t know they tried anything but 00 buck. I’m interested to know the average contact distance was...

I bet that those point men hoped that the contact distance was as far away as possible... :)

I am glad that I did not upset you, Rich, and I appreciate your contribution. Good luck, sir.

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 Post subject: Re: Multiple Home Invaders; Birdshot Poor HD Choice
PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:20 am 
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I read a couple books by Patches Watson about his Vietnam service as a SEAL. He was effusive about the Model 37 he carried with the buttstock sawn off, and just as enthusiastic about the #4 buck he used. He didn’t seem to be about just wounding someone.

I have my Mossberg 500 loaded with 5 #1 buck le132 shells first up, with the last two rounds in the tube being full power flitecontrol 00 buck.

I do have some Hornady Varmint Express #4 buck loads that seem like they would be very effective.


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 Post subject: Re: Multiple Home Invaders; Birdshot Poor HD Choice
PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:53 pm 
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amd6547 wrote:
I read a couple books by Patches Watson about his Vietnam service as a SEAL. He was effusive about the Model 37 he carried with the buttstock sawn off, and just as enthusiastic about the #4 buck he used. He didn’t seem to be about just wounding someone.

I have my Mossberg 500 loaded with 5 #1 buck le132 shells first up, with the last two rounds in the tube being full power flitecontrol 00 buck.

I do have some Hornady Varmint Express #4 buck loads that seem like they would be very effective.

I like your style. For my max indoor distance 10yds, I’m sure #4 is all I need. If the fight continues outside 00 is the medicine. I think I’ll follow you with four #4 then two 00 buck + more in the side saddle.


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 Post subject: Re: Multiple Home Invaders; Birdshot Poor HD Choice
PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2019 10:59 pm 
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Location: Newton Kansas
Houston, 23 Dec. 2019.

3 baddies invaded an OCCUPIED home in a Houston Suburb, about 0930hrs, intent upon doing no good.

1 of said baddies had a gun.

Homeowner, had a 'gauge (exact 'gauge unknown, smart bet is a Number 12).
It became Very Noisy, for a short time.
3 baddies went in, 0 baddies went out (kinda like a RAID!!! commercial, or were those Black Flag?).

Rumors of a 4th baddie that waited outside chose "Exit Stage Anywherelse" instead of "reinforce the crew", not located as of yet.

Now, the homeowner DID 'sustain serious injuries' in the Bullet Exchange, but, the homeowner lives & is expected to recover. It is an Imperfect World after all.
The 3 criminals, are NOT expected to commit any further crimes, ever. 0% recidivism, fully cured.

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/ho...-the-exchange/


No idea what the ammo was, no idea what the gauge was (although the smart betting man puts his money on "12")

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 Post subject: Re: Multiple Home Invaders; Birdshot Poor HD Choice
PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 6:04 pm 
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Thank you very much, OldStufferA5#1911. I intended to post the Houston home invasion, and I like your comments. Here is another home invasion near me that I intended to post, but SPOILER ALERT: the homeowner is a BG also.

However, it does illustrate that we do not live in the 1950s. The odds are great these days that multiple people including decoys plan home invasions in advance hoping to steal firearms (or in the following case, drugs). The solution: multiple layers of defense that give the homeowner time to arm himself, and nearby firearms loaded with ammunition capable of stopping a gunfight against multiple home invaders.

WPSD-TV6, Paducah, KY wrote:
Graves County deputies say homeowner shot two people in home invasion
Man investigators say shot 2 home invasion suspects now faces drug charges
Leanne Fuller, 19 Nov 2019

GRAVES COUNTY, KY — A man who the Graves County Sheriff's Office says shot two people who broke into his home overnight now faces marijuana-related charges.

The sheriff's office also released more details about the events of the break-in and shooting, which happened at a home on Tom Drive. Deputies received a call reporting a shooting and attempted robbery around 12:04 a.m.

In a news release sent Tuesday afternoon, the sheriff's office says the homeowner reported that a woman knocked on his door around midnight and asked to use his phone. Then, two masked men forced their way through the door, armed with "assault style" rifles, the release says. The homeowner said the men hit him with their rifles and demanded money. The homeowner said the woman disappeared, and he didn't see her again during the incident. He said the intruders began ransacking the home, and he was able to get to a semi-automatic pistol he had hidden. He fired multiple shots, hitting both men.

One man collapsed in the home. Not long after getting the homeowner's 911 call, authorities received another 911 call from a gas station reporting that a woman had dropped off the second man — who also had multiple gunshot wounds. Both men were taken to hospitals, and the sheriff's office says investigators are monitoring their locations and conditions.

The news release says investigators received a search warrant for the Tom Drive home to recover evidence related to the break-in and shooting. While they were carrying out the warrant, sheriff's office investigators and state troopers found about $8,000 in small bills, about 2 pounds of marijuana, electronic scales, packaging material and other related items, the release says. Investigators say the break-in suspects reportedly found the marijuana during the home invasion, and they'd put it in a bag along with other drug-related items. Detectives also found the masks the suspects allegedly wore in the break-in.

In addition to those items, investigators say they also seized multiple spent shell casings and guns.

Graves County Sheriff Jon Hayden tells Local 6's Abisola Adeyemo he believes that Crittendon was targeted by the break-in suspects because of the items found in his home. "This was not random. The motive, we believe — and we believe the evidence will show — was that this was targeted, that the motivation behind it was to steal money and/or drugs," he says.

Hayden says he hopes what happened in this case will make other people reconsider breaking into homes. "I would certainly hope that this would serve as a deterrent to anyone thinking about breaking into someone’s home. They have a right to defend themselves. We would encourage people to defend themselves if they feel that their lives are in danger,” Hayden says.

The homeowner, 27-year-old Anthony Dominique Crittendon, was arrested on a firearm enhanced charge of trafficking more than 8 ounces of marijuana and possession of drug paraphernalia. He was jailed in the Graves County Jail.

The sheriff's office says it is not yet releasing the names of the suspects who were shot, but that more arrests and charges are expected as the investigation continues.

The woman who knocked on Crittendon's door has not yet been found. If you have information about where she is, you can call the Graves County Sheriff's Office.

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 Post subject: Re: Multiple Home Invaders; Birdshot Poor HD Choice
PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 6:23 pm 
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These home invaders used a woman as a decoy to ask for help at midnight. Although this thread is long (and needlessly so due to off-topic wrangling), we can find other home invasions that used decoys asking for help late at night. I remember specifically one where the homeowner was shot to death the moment that he opened his door and his wife was shot five times while locked in a bathroom but who managed to shoot to death one of the invaders through the door.

The answer is to add skepticism and a 911 call to our layers of defense, rather than prematurely calming the dogs and opening the door.

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 Post subject: Re: Multiple Home Invaders; Birdshot Poor HD Choice
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 7:32 am 
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Let's see if more details are available of "the" Houston home invasion. Google. There it is. Wait a minute. What is this? Things don't match. Hey, this must be a different home invasion.

That is correct, another home invasion that only got local attention and never got a headline in Kentucky or Kansas. We are watching a national magic trick, distracting the attention of the sheeple away from the real issue, which is, keep the sheeple from thinking, OMG, maybe we ought to buy a gun?

Quote:
4 thieves steal safe, jewelry after pistol-whipping man during home invasion
HOUSTON – A man was pistol-whipped early Friday morning [20 Dec 2019] and his family was held at gunpoint during a home invasion in southeast Houston.

The incident was reported about 3:30 a.m. at a home on Pecan Villas Drive near Telephone Road.

According to Houston police, the family, which consisted of a father, mother and their young daughter, had just arrived at the home and were getting out of their vehicle when four armed men in ski masks and gloves ran up to them and forced them into their home.

The family was later forced into a bathroom and locked inside, police said.

Police said the attackers got away with a safe, jewelry and cash.

The father, who was pistol-whipped, suffered injuries that were not life-threatening, police said. No other injuries were reported.

Anyone with information about the case is asked to call Crime Stoppers at 713-222-8477.

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 Post subject: Re: Multiple Home Invaders; Birdshot Poor HD Choice
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 7:37 am 
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Pistol whipped. O.K., let's get further. Google. There it is, Wait a minute. Not again! Damn.

Jay R. Jordan with Houston Chronicle on 27 Dec 2019 wrote:
Police seek ‘person of interest’ in deadly Houston home invasion

Houston Police Department homicide investigators work at a two-story house on the 6800 block of Utah Street, where two males were shot in the back of their heads, on Friday, 08 Nov 2019, in Houston.

Douglas Ray Crawford, 36, is considered a "person of interest," according to Houston police, in a deadly home invasion in the 6800 block of Utah Street early Nov. 8, 2019.

Corey Johnson, 28, was charged with capital murder in the shooting death of Theodore Lane, 38, during a home invasion on 08 Nov 2019.

Douglas Ray Crawford, 36, has not been charged in the case, but detectives investigating the deadly robbery shooting believe Crawford has information that could help them in the case. Detectives have already charged 28-year-old Corey Johnson with capital murder in the case.

What police believe Crawford knows remains unclear.

On the day of the shooting, police allege Johnson broke into a home in the 6800 block of Utah Street early Nov. 8 in a small northeast Houston neighborhood. Two men, one of whom was later identified as Johnson, knocked on the door claiming to be door-to-door salesmen, according to detectives.


Door-to-door assassins. Yawn, not national news. Nothing here, sheeple. Move along.



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