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 Post subject: Re: Tactical/Home defense Course Questions and Reviews.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 9:27 pm 
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Don't think so... the laws are more relaxed across the border to your West.

Get ahold of DJTurnz. He's SW of Philly, and would have info on the local scene.



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 Post subject: Re: Tactical/Home defense Course Questions and Reviews.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 5:51 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2009 10:14 pm
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Location: NJ
wpage wrote:
Any in South Central NJ?

MTDS occasionally does classes in NJ. There's a Combative Shotgun Skills class coming up in a few weeks (which I'll be attending), but it's full.

This will be my first class with them (or anyone for that matter), so I can't speak on the quality of the instruction yet, but the guys in the arfcom ny/nj section speak highly of the instructor, Chris Fry.

MDTS seems to do the shotgun classes a couple times a year in Jersey, so keep an eye on the schedule for the next one.


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 Post subject: Re: Tactical/Home defense Course Questions and Reviews.
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 3:08 am 
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Anyone know of any course offerings in GA? Middle GA area would be preferred, but I'd be willing to drive a several hours.







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 Post subject: Review:Civilian Arms Training Defensive Shotgun Course, Chin
PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:43 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 07, 2009 12:57 pm
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Last Sunday I took a defensive shotgun course at Civilian Arms Training (CATS) in Chino, California. Here is their website http://www.civilianarmstraining.com/ . The course costs $100 plus a $5 range fee and is 1 day long. Here is a video example of the course (no this was not my class) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIRmxMdcFrg

I flew in to Ontario, CA from Texas for the course (many found it amusing that someone would travel from Texas to California for the purpose of shooting), and had no trouble checking my Remington 870 in its pelican case with double master locks. CATS asked that we bring 250 rounds small game/birdshot, 25 slugs, and 5 buckshot. TSA only allows you to carry 11lbs of ammo, so I came with the slugs and buck, but had to buy the birdshot once I got to California. Here is a picture of the shotgun I used for the course:

Remington 870 Express Synthetic 7-shot, cylinder bore (still fairly new gun, about 200 rounds through it, aftermarket XS big dot front sight installed and receiver/mag tube parkerized by a local smith to remove rust):
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Intro, Rules, and Equipment
I drove out to Prado Olympic Shooting Park and arrived about 15 minutes before 8 AM. The instructors inspected our weapons (they commented that mine was dirty, which I thought was odd since I only had 50 rounds through it since the last cleaning), then had us sign the standard legal releases. About 15 of us showed up for the course. After we sat down, the first thing we did was stand up and introduce ourselves. For several of the shooters, this was their 3rd or 4th time taking the course. Next we went over safety rules, then discussed use of the sling. Everyone needed a sling for this course, but it was only used as a means to stow the shotgun in between courses of fire. We discussed African vs. American carry. They stated that they preferred us to use African carry with the weapon slung behind our weak sides, muzzles pointed to the ground. After that, we talked about parts of the shotgun, different types of shotguns, as well as various accessories. The instructors recommended that we use both side saddle and butt stock carriers for the course, as well as some sort of system for storing more shells on your person (belt pouch, vest, but no sling carriers permitted). Unfortunately I only had a butt stock carrier. By this time we had killed about 90 minutes, and it was time to shoot.

Battle Zero
The first thing we did was obtain our "battle zero" by shooting paper targets at 50 yards from a bench rest. We shot a trio of 3 round groups, recording our patterns in a provided training pamphlet. I did hit the target with all 9 of my slugs, but my pattern was about 10", which was a bit more than they liked. I don't think the XS big dot is optimal for this type of distance, although I don't mean to deflect from my own lack of skill. Recoil was pretty punishing with my Federal “truball” 2&3/4” slugs.

Combat Reloads
Next, we discussed "combat reloads", which were something we used throughout the day. As a prelude, we went over the 4 steps to presenting the shotgun. To perform the combat reload, we held the rifle on the shoulder with 3 points of contact (cheek, strong shoulder, strong hand), then took our weak hands, removed a shell from a shell carrier (holding it between your index and pinky fingers), and dumped it directly into the chamber. Then we racked our slides forward. We also talked about "uploads" here, which is the same technique except you come under the shotgun with your weak hand and put the specified number of "uploads" into your magazine instead of dumping one in the chamber (always keeping the shotgun shouldered and muzzle on target).

Engaging Targets, Shooting on the Move, Clearing Area
Next we switched to birdshot, formed a line at 30 yards, presented, performed a combat load, and uploaded 4. We would get a "MOVE!" command, at which point we'd all walk forward in a line, and after a few paces would get the "FIRE!" command. Then we'd engage a steel target with all 5 rounds while continuing to move forward. The key here was to remember to look left and right to keep the line even without sweeping you neighbors with your muzzle. While still moving, at about 20 yards, we'd perform another combat reload, upload 2, and fire 3 more shots until reaching 10 yards. At this point, we'd move onto the target at the low ready, disarm the perp with the weak hand while keeping the muzzle on target, then go to "sool"(sp?) position, pivot left to clear the area, yell "CLEAR", make the gun safe, present it to our neighbors on the left and right, then sling the weapon. We did this drill about half a dozen times, mixing in prone and kneeling shots with slugs (stop'n'go).

Incapacitation Drills
Next we practiced incap situations. With one hand, we racked the slide and fired from the standing position with our weak hands behind our backs, then we did the same thing with the strong hands behind our backs. Next we took things a step further, laid down on our backs with legs spread (I forget what they called this position) and made one handed shots in a “crunch” type position with the barrel between our legs. This was very challenging for a first timer like me. We also practiced "blade shooting" in which your shoulders are perpendicular to the target, and you are "too tired to shoulder the rifle", so you fire shot from your midsection, once from your chest, and once from your shoulder, allowing the recoil to raise the shotgun higher after each shot.

Buck Shot Patterning
We patterned our buckshot at 5,10,15,20,&25 yards, making notes of our hits in our pamphlets. I used Federal Power-Shok 00 and all my pellets hit the target, even at 30 yards. My 5-20 yard shots were all within a 10” group.

Rolling Thunder
We all stood in a line at 20 yards, the first guy fired at consecutive adjacent steel targets until he emptied his mag or had a malfunction, shouted "GO!" at the next guy, he emptied, then yelled "GO!", until it got to the end of the line, then we'd go back to the first guy until we all ran out of ammo in our carriers (went through about 50 rounds in a few minutes this way, good equipment test).

Barricade Shooting
We set up 4x8 plywood barricades at 20 yards, combat reloaded then uploaded 3, backed away slowly, shot the outer right target, backed away more, shot the inner right target, moved back to the barricade, reloaded, and repeated for the left side, then came back to the barricade. Good intro to CQB type work.

Tactical Scenario
4 students started this drill in a "vehicle" (4 chairs) 50 yards from the targets, an "IED" went off (instructor yells BOOM!), students retrieved their unloaded shotguns from "trunk" (table behind our chairs), we spread out, used some barrels for cover, reloaded on the move, took shots from cover, gradually moved forward until reaching the barricades at 20 yards, uploaded a slug and took a "hostage shot" (silhouettes with a bad guy holding a hostage).

Conclusions
Before heading home, we each had a chance to stand up and give a brief speech about what we thought of the course. We covered a lot in this class, and I often felt outpaced because many of the students had already attended 2 or 3 times. By the end of the day I was feeling pretty good about the basic procedures, but unfortunately I was probably one of the worst shooters there because I could not operate my 870 properly. I would consistently get 2 or 3 shots off, rack the next shot, and get nothing when I'd pull the trigger. I'd rack the slide to "clear the malfunction", eject an unfired shell onto the ground, and then upload another one which would also fail to fire. I presume this was my own fault, failing to seat the slide all the way forward under time/drill pressure. I need to work on that. It was frustrating seeing guys pump out 2-3 rounds per second with similar equipment while I was fumbling around like a nincompoop.

Overall, I am glad I attended the course, because I realize I have a ton of work to do to become proficient with a shotgun. I really didn't realize how much I didn't know! I am looking forward to taking another class soon, be it this one or one from another establishment. Our instructors Tim & Chris were great, and they don't hold back and will give you some healthy scolding if you need it (I was a target a few times). I would recommend this course to anyone in the southwestern US, although in retrospect it's a bit short to travel across the country for like I did. Perhaps if you combined it with their pistol course on Saturday it'd be a fun weekend.

I think having a side saddle carrier would really help with "combat reloads" and uploads while keeping the shotgun shouldered. The butt stock carrier is also nice, but not as convenient for reloads. In addition, I need some kind of system that allows me to hold shells on my person in prone and kneeling positions, because the belt pouch I was using would dump everything on the ground if you weren't standing up.

Pros

Exposure to many concepts Quickly

Friendly Instructors & Students

Good SoCal Weather

Steel and Paper targets

Lots of shooting on the move, tactical scenarios

Instructor's Sons will pick up all your shells for $3

Open discussion about equipment

Trained on uses of different types of ammo and when to select what

Affordable Price

Cons

Very Fast pace, so you only get to do each drill a few times and probably
won't master it before you move on if this is your first time.

Oriented more toward Military and LEO's than home defense, a lot things like the IED scenario were a little impractical, but still a whole lot of fun.

If you get a large turnout, instructor: student ratio is low

Hard to hear range commands due to echoes and only one guy using a
megaphone

Overall, it was a positive experience. I hope this helps!


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 Post subject: Re: Tactical/Home defense Course Questions and Reviews.
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:17 am 
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Hey every one first post for me. I was curios if anyone knew of a good training center in, or around Portland, OR (within a 100 miles). Thanks and I'm loving this site.


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 Post subject: Re: Tactical/Home defense Course Questions and Reviews.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 3:33 pm 
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Welcome!

http://www.thunderranchinc.com (375 miles)
http://www.lmsdefense.com (500+ miles)

ETA: Both would be worth your time to drive.

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Either you are a weapon and your gun is a tool, or your gun is a weapon and you are the tool. - Tactical Response
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 Post subject: Re: Tactical/Home defense Course Questions and Reviews.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:46 pm 
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Location: Portlandia.
+1 thunder ranch. I've been meaning to get the money together to get down there myself. I am also in the portland-ish are.

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 Post subject: Re: Tactical/Home defense Course Questions and Reviews.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:25 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:50 pm
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Hey everyone, I have been checking out this website for a couple of months and finally bought my first shotgun this past week. I bought a Mossberg 500. I really want to learn to shoot it correctly and be able to use it to defend my family and my home.

So, for my very first post, I want to know if there is any training available near Savannah, GA (coastal SC or Jacksonville, FL)?


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 Post subject: Re: Tactical/Home defense Course Questions and Reviews.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 10:01 am 
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Can anyone recommend a beginner's course for HD shotgun near Chicago?

Also would anyone be able to suggest ranges where you can practice shooting a tactical shotgun? Seems like most of the clubs / ranges in the area are more about skeet/trap shooting. Ideally I'd like to find places that support both.

Thanks in advance...


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 Post subject: Re: Tactical/Home defense Course Questions and Reviews.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 10:08 am 
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STEELERFAN_N_GA wrote:
Hey everyone, I have been checking out this website for a couple of months and finally bought my first shotgun this past week. I bought a Mossberg 500. I really want to learn to shoot it correctly and be able to use it to defend my family and my home.

So, for my very first post, I want to know if there is any training available near Savannah, GA (coastal SC or Jacksonville, FL)?


You can go North to NC or South to Florida.

Magpul Dynamics runs a shotgun course in Northern Florida, and Defensive Concepts runs a shotgun course in the Charlotte area.

sergiov wrote:
Can anyone recommend a beginner's course for HD shotgun near Chicago?

Also would anyone be able to suggest ranges where you can practice shooting a tactical shotgun? Seems like most of the clubs / ranges in the area are more about skeet/trap shooting. Ideally I'd like to find places that support both.

Thanks in advance...


As far as ranges, the closest range would probably be Racine County Line Rifle Club in Wisconsin. I don't think Bristol really caters to our crowd.

As far as classes, we have had some from various traveling instructors at RCLRC (Awerbuck, Sullivan, Tactical Response), you'l just need to check the schedule. Alternately, many trainers run classes at the Boone County Indiana SO's range. That's a bit further away, but they run more "tactical" type courses there than RCLRC does (mostly rifle).

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 Post subject: Re: Tactical/Home defense Course Questions and Reviews.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:00 pm 
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excellent -- I'll give RCLRC a call... thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: Tactical/Home defense Course Questions and Reviews.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 11:53 pm 
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sergiov wrote:
excellent -- I'll give RCLRC a call... thanks!


While the courses are open to the public, the range is members only. Membership is not difficult to come by though.

rclrc.net

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Don't be shocked that people die, be surprised you're still alive.

Either you are a weapon and your gun is a tool, or your gun is a weapon and you are the tool. - Tactical Response
Embrace your wear marks. - 870Pilot


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 Post subject: Re: Tactical/Home defense Course Questions and Reviews.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:36 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2009 9:46 pm
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anyone know of anything good in COLORADO? i just got another shotgun, my wife said the only way i could get it was to enroll us in a good home shotgun defense course.

hopefully there is one here?


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 Post subject: Re: Tactical/Home defense Course Questions and Reviews.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:01 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 5:13 am
Posts: 25
Location: MS
http://www.rattlesnakeridge.org/

http://www.slr15.com/

Have trained with both places. Sully at Defensive Edge will travel to your location if you can put together a group.

Can highly recommend either if you get a chance to attend.


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 Post subject: Re: Tactical/Home defense Course Questions and Reviews.
PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 11:38 am 
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Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2009 8:30 am
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NC / SC Defensive Shotgun Course:

Defensive Concepts http://defensiveconceptsnc.com/index.html is offering a Defensive Shotgun course in Carthage, NC on March 27. I've signed up for it. And the cost seems very reasonable.


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 Post subject: Re: Tactical/Home defense Course Questions and Reviews.
PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 6:06 pm 
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LSW wrote:

Quote:
I don't think the XS big dot is optimal for this type of distance


Two comments:

- I have an XS Big Dot as well and it does OK but I think my Marble Tritium sight is smaller and therefore more accurate at longer slug range. Like the difference in different MOA red dots.

- Also, try slugs from other positions than off a rest, like standing, kneeling, etc. I find that trying to "over shoot" my bead sighted guns as if they are rifles is counter productive.

Standing with Marble Tritium bead at 50 yards:

https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/cpg1410/displayimage.php?album=21&pos=6

The black silhouette is 10 1/2 " across. It can be done.

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 Post subject: Re: Tactical/Home defense Course Questions and Reviews.
PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:41 am 
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Whoops. :oops:

ETA: This is a bit of a hijack, but...

Odin01 wrote:
LSW wrote:
I don't think the XS big dot is optimal for this type of distance


- I have an XS Big Dot as well and it does OK but I think my Marble Tritium sight is smaller and therefore more accurate at longer slug range. Like the difference in different MOA red dots.


The Marbles bead body itself is actually .8mm larger overall than the XS. It is the white part that is smaller than the BigDot. In either event, one should be using the apex of the bead as an aiming point at 25 yards +, in which case the difference between the two should be almost imperceptible.

Headshots (say minute of paper-plate) should be fairly easy to make at 50 yards with either bead and proper trigger control.

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Don't be shocked that people die, be surprised you're still alive.

Either you are a weapon and your gun is a tool, or your gun is a weapon and you are the tool. - Tactical Response
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 Post subject: Re: Tactical/Home defense Course Questions and Reviews.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 10:30 am 
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Joined: Sun May 18, 2008 11:36 pm
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Southern but Mobile wrote:
NC / SC Defensive Shotgun Course:

Defensive Concepts http://defensiveconceptsnc.com/index.html is offering a Defensive Shotgun course in Carthage, NC on March 27. I've signed up for it. And the cost seems very reasonable.



Yeah I will be at that one too. Should be a good time.


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 Post subject: Re: Tactical/Home defense Course Questions and Reviews.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 10:33 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2009 8:30 am
Posts: 135
Good, billpete

Look forward to meeting you. I've emailed some with one of the instructors; I think these guys really enjoy teaching. I plan to sweat, get dirty, learn as much as I can, and have fun.

I even have my wife's blessings!


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 Post subject: Re: Tactical/Home defense Course Questions and Reviews.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 3:30 am 
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Joined: Sun May 18, 2008 11:36 pm
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I am still in Afghanistan, but should be home by the end of the month.

It will be a nice way to enjoy being back home for sure.




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