Anyone, Anyone, is the North East completely devoid of defensive Shotgun courses? Do I need to open one up myself?

SigArms is over in Epping, NH.

Link

+1 for Scott Reitz and ITTS in Southern California[/quote]

On October 14th & 15th, 2005 I took the Sigarms Academy-Defensive Shotgun Course in Epping, NH.

For me, as a new shotgun owner, it was a perfect fit. I would strongly recommend this for all newbies.

The course will change slightly for the 2006 classes.....our class did not transition to the hand gun. We spent 15 of the 16 hours outdoors ...in the pouring rain...shooting at the range with shotguns only.... 300+ rounds down range.

A little background info:

This course was a mandatory first step for me because I have no real firearms training.....I am starting with a clean slate or more like no bad habits. I recently bought a new Remington 870, 18in. barrel for home defense. After much reading on this forum I put a Knoxx Spec Ops Stock on my shotgun and a Specter CQB tactical sling (mandatory for the Sigarms course)

My impressions:

Small class size: 7 students, 1 instructor

The instructor was Ed Fasold, a recently retired Navy SEAL with 22+ years of experience.....that pretty much speaks for itself. You just can't put a price on training with a professional like that.

Knoxx_Spec Ops Stock was awesome. For a better comparison I should have shot the first day with my original synthetic butt stock and then switched to the Knoxx stock for the second day. None the less, I walked away from those two days and 300 + rounds with no shoulder soreness at all!

The first hour was a classroom discussion of safety rules, range rules, shot gun types and add ons. The next 15 hours where spent sending rounds down range.

Out on the firing line we started with dry fire drills, body position and carry ready positions with a sling......oh yeah....we talked more about safety. With dummy rounds we practiced loading, unloading and sustained reloading drills.....some footwork and shooting positions. All these drills where then practiced with live fire. One drill we did was to randomly mix in dummy rounds with live rounds to simulate a misfire. These dummy rounds had the weight and feel of real ammo (different color and clearly labeled), these where not the light weight, orange plastic dummy rounds. The idea is during a misfire don't stand still....if you misfire you need to side step to the left or right....then fire off a round and finish with a sustained reload. Repetition, repetition......these drills where repeated again and again, always
finishing with a sustained reload and an emphasis on safety.

Day 2: A 15 minute review and safety discussion. On the live fire range it was more footwork: side to side movement, walking forward and backwards......while shooting. Back to target, pivot and shoot. Tactical use of cover: rolling out while standing, one knee down, both knees down.

My suggestions:

1) All new, inexperienced shotgun owners need to take a class like this, period.
2) Get yourself a 25+ round ammo waist belt: all shooting in the course is a sustained reload so you will empty a side saddle in about 2 seconds.
We all stuffed our pockets and usually had 25 to 30 rounds on us. You need to be able to reload your side saddle too.
3) Buy the best full piece rain suit money can buy......you will still get wet....well, if it rains that is.
4) Bring both knee and elbow pads.
5) This course did not take the time to teach me as a individual to be a better marksman and I did not expect it to. I left with a very clear understanding on how I need to safely train by myself or on a firing line with other shooters. Repetition, repetition......you just have to know your shotgun.

One other thing. It is interesting how my driving habits change when you drive through 3 states with a shotgun and 350 rounds of ammo in the trunk.
I stuck to the speed limit and it was good for fuel economy.......got 50.14 miles per gallon in my diesel VW TDI Golf.

A big thanks to all on this forum!

Course Title: Defensive Shotgun
Where: American Shooting Center (ASC), 5590 Ruffin Road, San Diego, CA
When: Sunday, 23 Oct 05 from 08:00AM to 01:30PM
Cost: $125 for course plus ammo (not included in course fee)

# of students: 8
# of instructors: 4

Course syllabus: (Take from DIRECLTY from website)
Recommended for:
Anybody with an interest in the safe and effective use of shotguns.

Experience required:
None

Prerequisites:
None

Equipment required:
Shotgun (12 gauge recommended, semi-automatic or pump); rentals available with advance notice.
Sling (available with advance notice)
Eye and ear protection (available at no charge)

Ammunition required: (Not included in course fee)
100 rounds birdshot
25 rounds 00 buckshot
20 slugs

Topics covered:
Basic and tactical shotgun safety
California firearms law with respect to firearms ownership and use of lethal force Shotgun patterning
Shotgun carry modes
Proper ammunition selection
Tactical loading/reloading

A little bit about me BEFORE talking of the course
I had never fired any type of firearm before in my life. My family (mom and dad) were of the type that guns were/are for policeman ONLY.
I am 5 ft. 10 inch, 215 lbs and consider myself a weakling, can’t even do 10 push-ups before I collapse. Yes WAY out of shape.
I hated sports in high school, was/am NOT very active.
I prefer to sit at a computer 24/7 if I could.
I’m putting this all out there so that other newcomers and those reading this understand the type of mindset I was in prior to going to the course. The main reason for going was because my wife (also from a family of no guns) and I both agreed that with our new baby in our lives it was time to defend ourselves at home and also prepare for any emergencies.

The course thru my eyes
7:12AM
Arrived at ASC too early, I was coming from 40 miles away and can never tell how the traffic into San Diego will be. A bit nervous of what to expect, if I will even be able to pick up the shotgun and fire it without flying backwards like in the movies, of hurting myself or others.

7:45AM
I went into ASC to check-in, buy my ammo and wait for the course. My license was taken for some info, I filled out a ASC form to use the gun range and release ASC of any liability and was given a laminated ASC card to use whenever I come back to the range.

I was given the following ammo for the course:

Federal Ammunition – Game Load Lead
12 Gauge, 2 ¾ inch, 1 oz shot, 8 shot
25 shotshells per box
Total of 4 boxes at 5.99 each

Winchester Ranger
12 Gauge, 2 ¾ inch, 9 pellets, low recoil, 00 buckshot
5 shotshells per box
Total of 5 boxes at 3.99 each

Winchester X Super – Rifled Slugs Hollow Point
12 gauge, 2 ¾ inche, 1600 FPS velocity, 1 oz slug
5 slugs per box
Total of 4 boxes at 3.99 each

Grand Total of ammo: 64.51 (with tax) for 145 total rounds.

8:00AM
Once all students have signed in, the doors were locked. ASC is open on Sundays but not until 12:00PM. Early Sunday morning are reserved for classes. We were told to got to the “conference room”. A small room in the back with some tables, chairs, notepads, pens and several shotguns on display.

Our main instructor (a former San Diego Police Officer who spend the last several years of his PD time as a range master) begins a small lecture on what a shotgun is. He starts off by showing us 4 different shotguns. He tells us that all the shotguns are NOT loaded and picks up the pump action and shows us how to see that it is NOT loaded. He tells us to always assume that the guns are loaded and to check the shotgun when getting it from someone else and when giving it to someone else.

With that he picks up some kroation (??SP??) shotgun that was real simple. Basically two tubes where you removed the front part inserted a shell and then when ready to fire just pull back on the tube and BAM! He should us the motion of how it would fire, there was no shell off course.

Next was the pump-action, followed by a semi-automatic and lastly (don’t recall the name) but one that breaks in half where you put 2 shells in at a time to load and fire.

Next on the wall there were 4 signs, which is called “the rules”. He advised us that we should know these rules and to write them down. Mistakes occur when you do not follow one or all four of these rules.

Rule 1: Handle all firearms as if they are loaded.
Rule 2: Never let your muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
Rule 3: Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.
Rule 4: Be sure of your target and the surrounding area.

He then showed us the different stance between holding a pistol, rifle, and shotgun and how to properly place the butt of the shotgun between our shoulder and collar bone where the muscle is at. Otherwise he said we will end up with brushes on our shoulder, arm, etc… (I can attest to having a nice big red/purple brush right now). The biggest point here was remembering that our cheek needs to stay with the butt of the shotgun at all times.

Following how to hold the shotgun, he got into how to load it. Two types of loads were shown: combat load and partial load from bottom. The combat load was using our non-trigger hand to cradle and insert on shell via the ejection port so that it will be in the chamber. Then using the same hand adding more shells via the bottom of the weapon one at a time.

After this the instructor talked about high ready and low ready. The 2 positions we would be using on the range. Followed lastly by how different butts are of different lengths and what you should look for in terms of length.

At this point it got open to question where some students asked about choke. That discussion lead to shell types, how they fire, open, travel in a barrel and the different types of ammo. A few other questions about some of the shotguns some of the students brought which lead to line of sight on the guns and using your dominate eye to sight your target.

I did not know which was my dominate eyes so a simple test was done using my hands to determine. (My right eye is the dominate one). With that we went to the range.

??AM
On the range we were divided into 2 groups of 4 each. It just so happen that 4 students (me included) were complete NooBs while the other 4 had at least fires a shotgun/gun before. So each group was broken down as follows:

2 instructors
2 NooBs (not we were not called NooBs at the range)
2 Other students

I was given a mossberg shotgun 590 that had a heat guard on it.

Here is what we went over on the range (in the order that I remember it)
- learning about the spread of your shotgun (we fired from 3 yds, 7 yds, 10 yds, and 15 yds while using birdshot and then again using buckshot)
- How to load the weapon, put the safety on, pumping it and holding it
- Firing 2 rounds in rapid succession (birdshot) at 1 target
- Firing 2 rounds in rapid succession (birdshot) at 2 targets. 1 shot per target
- How to unload a fully loaded weapon
- Firing 4 rounds while walking towards a target (learned to walk with a lower center of gravity)
- Firing 4 rounds while walking backwards from the target
- Learning to load multiple types of round and firing them in a certain order (eg. Fire in this order 2 bird, 1 slug, 2 buck. Then fire 1 buck, 1 slug, 2 bird, 1 buck)
- Firing walking right to left at 4 targets
- Firing walking left to right at 4 targets
- Obstacle course firing (eg. Knee behind trash can fire at target in front, run to next can lean right fire at target 2, lean left fire at target 3, walk right to left to final target and fire last 2 rounds.
- Firing from the hip and how to compensate
- Firing from the high to low level
- Firing from the low to high level
- Firing quickly with arm fully extended
- Firing from hip while reloading from the bottom to see that you can reload and fire at the same time and NOT hurt yourself.
- Slug Fest
We loaded several slugs into the guns and fired from standing, kneeing and prone position. Our instructor told us this was optional but to at least fire one from the standing position to feel what a slug feels like. Everyone fired at least 2 shots from standing, then me the other noob and one other student fires kneeing and then me and one other student fired once prone. (OUCH!) The instructor smiled and he and we knew what it meant. Unless you are crazy don’t fire a SLUG in prone position unless you want a nice kiss from the shotgun and a nice warm face.
- The last “formal” training was 5 round rapid succession of any type of round to show us how the accuracy goes crazy after 2 or 3.


11:50AM
The last 10 minutes the instructor said if you had any ammo left you could fire it off or unload weapon and head back to the “conference room”. I fired some more but by that point my shoulder was sore and after the slug prone shot my face was not feeling all that great so I was going to all it a day. I end up with 7 birdshots, 7 buckshots, and 7 slugs.

12:00PM
Back in the conference room we went over the following:
- What each type of ammo will do inside a home, you decide what to use to be warn of the consequences of shooting other people
- Pros and Cons of birdshot
- Different types of “wild ammo” some that shoot flames when coming out the barrel, slugs with wings, rubber shots, etc..
- The toll of taking a human life. Can you deal with that? Otherwise get a bat, golf club, etc.
- What is the best home defense weapon to use? The one that you have at hand that will fire!
- The pros and cons of using a shotgun for home defense
- Be prepared to use your weapon and pray you never have to use it
- One way to prepare your shotgun for home use (the instructor’s personal way)
- The sound of the shotgun and the power it can have over people in a home defense situation
- Two types of motor skills used to fire a shotgun: fine and basic. Fine motor skill is used when using the trigger or needing to use the release button. Basic motor skill is used to pump the shotgun. Fine motor skills go out the window during stress if you do not practice.
- Keeping your distance if you meet the enemy
- Play “what if” games at home to see how you will defend yourself and family
- Some CA laws about what is okay and what is not
o You can not defend property with force. That is why you have insurance! Let them go and call 9-1-1
o You can use force only if they are attacking you
- Basically you can shot in your house if you have unwanted guest but be prepared to get sued for it.
- Educate the entire family on the guns in the house. They need not fire it but should at least know how to load/unload/lock/unlock the weapon in case they ever need to.
- Lastly what to do next after the course:
o See how your gun works: how the pump action works, how to load, unload, and practice with no ammo doing dry runs of the weapon
o Go to the range every few months at least and fire some rounds
o practice, practice, practice
01:30PM
Course is over and we all go home.

My personal thoughts
Well I am still alive! Slightly bruised on my right arm and still have a warm right side face even at 9:09PM but overall the fear I had at the beginning is gone. The small class size and 2 to 1 ratio of instructors was extremely good. It gave, at least me, almost one-on-one time with the instructors. The fact that 50% of the class was like me (never fired a shotgun) was great. Those that had some experience wanted to know how it was after each time we (the noobs) did something.

What I enjoyed the most was experiencing the different recoil effect with different ammo during the mix ammo firing. I’ve played a lot of online “first person shooter” games and firing a real weapon is nothing like the video game. LOL!!! =) I downside was that with a fully loaded weapon that shotgun is heavy if you have to hold it for a long period of time. Practice, Practice, Practice will I am sure remove this “heavy feel” of the weapon.

So was the course worth $125 + 65 (ammo) = $190? HECK YES! For anyone who has never fired anything before this course is WELL worth it! The small class size and various scenarios mix made the course very enjoyable.

So what is next for me?
Well I want to get the Mossberg’s Mariner shotgun but it will come in at $460 and I only have $500 right now for the weapon and all it’s stuff right now. The one I used in the class mossbery 590 felt nice and comes in at $316.

For sure I will be getting the Special Ops butt from knoxx because I have seen, heard, and read wonders about it. So I think I’m going to forego the marine version and get the following:

--initial purchase--
Mossberg 590 with 18” barrel and heat guard
Special Ops stock
Ammo
Cleaning kit (hum what to get)

--add ons for sure for later—
surefire light

--do I really need these—
sling
side saddle
bandolier

thanks

I see someone took notes... I think I know which guy you are. I was in the first group (left range) and had the two Remingtons.

For a buck and a quarter, you can't beat having an indoor range in the city for yourself. not too mention getting to play around on the floor in front of the firing line.

I prefer remington only due to the fact that I have become familiar with them. Had I thought of it, I would have liked to have switched with someone else to try out the thumb safety on the mossy. I should have also brought my 28 inch autoloader and left the extra rem 870 at home. the normal rapid fire rules where suspended when you pay extra (hehe).

I learned a few details about my 870's and know exactly how to set them up. the police 870 wingmaster is perfect for me. after an hour or so, I switched to a long 26 inch IC (imp cylinder) barrel. That made things tighten up a lot. So much that I would consider it for permanent use. The other 870 can stay at 18 inches for house (room length) only usage.

Someone had a store loaner 20 inch mossberg and I liked his patterns better than my 18 bbl patterns. You should seriously consider a 20 inch one since I lost a few pellets of oo buck on some of the easier shots.

slugs were fun, but after 10, I didn't want anymore. the highbase buck gets you tender enough. I didn't know you could drill fist sized groups with slugs thru a smoothbore from casual shooting positions. I'm doing some more of that next time at the rifle range.

I might hold out to figure a way to get the marine model if it is your first choice, but it is true that the extras account for probably 1/3 of the purchase, especially since you are starting from not even having a gun cleaning kit.

p.s. don't forget to add $30 for the dros (dealer record of sale) paperwork, tax, and a few dollars for the CA approved lock that you have to buy with every gun unless you have a safe. (btw, you can buy 4 longuns on one dros).

mike100 were you the one with the green shotgun and a real long brownish shotgun? I was indeed in your group on the left. I had on the kaki cargo pants yesterday.

I have been thinking of holding out and just getting the addition $100 to $200 for the marine version but started to think last night after the course. Do i really need it? The SG will be used only for home defense and taking it to the range for practice every month or two. So while the marine version looks "cool" and has the corrosion protection will I ever really need that being that I'm on land (away from the coast) and if my wife gets her way we will be moving back to Indiana (where I won't be seeing any oceans at all).

With that in mind I just can't see spending the additional $144 just for 2 "add-ons" that I won't be using. I would rather spend that $144 and get "more stuff" for the weapon (surefire light and the stock ops butt alone are almost the price of another SG. 250+130 = 380).

Yes I forgot to factor in the "misc tax" items but that is under the "misc tax" items and the deal with the wife was no more than $500 for the weapon and it's add-ons. =) The misc taxes, locks, etc.. well that is "extra"

Actually I really have $600 to spend but I reserved $100 for "misc stuff like lock, registertaion etc.." was not sure how much that would be but figured $100 should help.

that's me.. I was standing right next to you..duh

yeah that wood stocked 870 police is my new favorite piece.I just got it used and queried about it here:https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=59761


let me know what/when you get something..I belong to a club up north and know of a place or two to go shooting...also to shoot other stuff since shotguns can get kind of abusive after awhile.

I live up in San Marcos.

mike

hey mike i live in San Marcos also and am going to be taking the next course offered at American. thanks to jediagh for the awesome review. one question, your allowed to bring your own shotgun, do they have a problem with "quite a few accesories" on the gun or do they want a simple shotgun?

big 5 has the Mossberg 500 for around $220.00 right now. Same reciever as the 590 as far as I know. If you're going to change out the stock and forearm anyway, you might want to think about it!

Tom, I was there also.... my gun has lot's of "stuff". It's not an issue.

Judging by the gadget content of the instructors IPSC race gun, I'd say he's cool with it.

I mistakenly, as a right hander, purchased a buttstock 6 shell holder. while still useful for storage, I now know that the 6 pack reciever side saddle is the best place to have reload ammo available.

It will only be heavier... wait 'till you try the desperation/full extension arm reach one handed shot portion of the course (hehe).


as a note to potential students. bring a trap bag waist shell holder as it will save you the time rooting around for more bird and buck as well as having to set the gun down to load pockets etc. They had a good one in the store front for about $20 bucks, but I didn't get it..should have.

tom, mike and daboz please read below

for tom


Yeah tomberenger, DaBoz's gun look like this one.




As long as your gun shoots you won't have any problems. Note that there was a sign about a certain brand of ammo not allowed on the range. Don't recall the ammo brand/type.

for daboz


But is the moss 500 an 18" barrel?

for mike


thank mike. i live in oceanside and should be getting my sg the 1st/2ndweek of nov. waiting for my "bonus" nov check to arrive.

It's the Mossberg 500a Combo. Comes with an 18.5" barrel.

Shepsan,

try George Dean , holds his classes at Ben Avery.
www.tactrain.com

tell him Mark P. sent you.

M

Is there a website for American?

Do you know if they ever come up to Northern Ca?

Dan

http://www.gotammo.com/

I think they have another course this spring- pretty sure it is not a traveling road show.

Finished up Tactical shotgun course at http://www.rangemaster.com. It was a good basic course covering modifications, ammo, patterning, and limitations. Range work included dry work, reloading techniques, stance, sight picture, and limitations of bird shot and buck shot w/cylinder chokes, accuracy w/slugs. The Knoxx Spec-ops stock shot very well. If your in the SE US. would highly recommend.

I enjoyed my basic pistol course @ Gunsite ten + years ago but have now adopted a Benelli M2 as my basic home defense weapon. Can anyone recommend a school or class for shotgun in central Texas or the San Antonio area. Thanks in advance. Jon

I have searched the net for classes near Branson, MO and can't find any. Does any body know of any? Also, do any places allow video cameras, on yourself, to check form? Thanks.

-jamas