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 Post subject: Stick to one platform?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 10:45 pm 
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Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2005 7:27 pm
Posts: 26
Location: Texas
I'm new to shotguns and shoulder fired weapons overall.

I realized I don't have the skills to rely on a handgun for personal protection or recreational shooting and don't have the desire to spend the time and money to obtain them, so I have decided that a shotgun makes the most sense for me.

I decided to start with the Mossberg line of shotguns,
and have a 500 and all calibers of the Shockwave. I bought several hundred rounds of 2 3/4" birdshot, buckshot & slugs, as well as a few hundred round of Aguila minishells.

I didn't really enjoy shooting the 500, but all versions of the Shockwave are fun for recreational shooting and accurate for me within the ranges I will realistically encounter for personal defense. The controls are also easy to manipulate for me.

However, I decided a should at least try a Benelli Supernova, as it is an option often mentioned alongside the 870 and the 500.

I took it out today for a quick trip, familiarize myself overall and to see how manipulating the controls would work out for me.
I really liked shooting all types of ammo, and the extended forend was very nice. The controls were a bit awkward for me because I have small hands, but I would assume with use this would be a non-issue.

Because the control are very different on the Shockwave and the Supernova, and I don't want to give up on either platform, I'm wondering just how important this difference will be in a personal protection situation.

After I put a few more hundred rounds through the Supernova and pattern the gun, I will be using it for home protection. It will be in the house with the safety off and no round chambered.

I am using the Shockwave for vehicle carry, with the safety off and no round chambered.

I won't be taking any formal shotgun training courses and I only shoot for the enjoyment of shooting. Realistically, I'll problably be shooting between 1-2K rounds per year.




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 Post subject: Re: Stick to one platform?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:05 am 
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Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:01 am
Posts: 5602
Location: Newton Kansas
Take a shotgun defense course, you'll learn all kinds of things you don't know that you don't know.

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I don't always venture out into the sub-freezing darkness, but when I do, it is hunting season, and I carry a Browning. Stay hungry my friends.


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 Post subject: Re: Stick to one platform?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:10 am 
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A little outside the question, but I'll put in my 2 cents.
For reference, I am a retired infantryman who earned my CIB the hardway.

I literally can't count how many firefights I have been in.
All that being said, the shotgun has zero relevance as a tactical weapon for civilians and nearly zero for military and police.

In every way an AR platform carbine is a much better choice for whatever you need to do.

Palmetto State Armory sells quality ARs for ridiculously cheap and with basic irons, or a cheap vortex/holosun red dot scope, and a weapon mounted light, you have a VERY good HD/tactical system.

I love shotguns. I have a safe full of shotguns for all kinds of reasons. I love upland, waterfowl, turkey, skeet, sporting clays (forget trap). I shoot my shotguns 90% of the time.

But when it comes to business, get a modern AR. There is a reason police dumped their shotguns long ago.

So, get an AR for business, and get a shotgun that does what you want for gaming and hunting.


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 Post subject: Re: Stick to one platform?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:41 pm 
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Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2005 7:27 pm
Posts: 26
Location: Texas
I have to ask, why would an AR be better for personal protection than a shotgun?

It seems to be that the role of a shotgun for the Military and/or the Police is going to be very different than it is for personal protection/home defense.


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 Post subject: Re: Stick to one platform?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:51 pm 
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accurate, high capacity, lightweight, easy follow up shots, modularity.


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 Post subject: Re: Stick to one platform?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:58 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2005 7:27 pm
Posts: 26
Location: Texas
Okay, those seem to be good points, and are much the same as I read elsewhere concerning the AR for personal protection.

What I'm not sold on is how relevant they are, for me.

My shotgun(s), especially within realistic/justifiable/average home defense ranges are very accurate for me.

They have a capacity of at least 5 or as many as 8 rounds, and I'm thinking this capacity is more than enough for home/personal protection. And of course, I am taking into account the possible need to reload, as unlikely as that would seem to be based on any citizen self defense data that I can find. That being the case, I'm not really placing as much importance on reloading as I am upon shooting and handling.

The weight for me would seem to be a non-issue, because I'm not going to carry it around for any extended period of time in a self defense situation. I'm not going to "clear" my house, for any reason, and I'm not under any circumstances going to follow-up beyond an initial encounter.

Although I have never an owned or shot an AR, being a handgun only guy for as long as I can remember, I'm sure follow-up shots are quicker than a shotgun, but for me, I think follow-up shots will also be more accurate with a shotgun, especially if mine or someone else's movement is involved.

I'm not concerned with modularity, beyond possibly mounting a rail on the receiver, and all of the shotguns I have are drilled and tapped for that.
And, just because I had never even considered any type of lights/lasers/red dots on any gun I've ever owned, I bought a Crimson Trace laser saddle and mounted it on the 12 gauge Shockwave, so I could determine for myself if it really was of any practical use. It certainly doesn't detract from anything in actual use, I'm thinking it's more of a crutch and in no way replaces actual practical use and experience.

Not wanting to get bogged down with paralysis through analysis, I settled on a few sources that seemed to be well respected ( for what that's worth in the internet/youtube world ), and came across one of Paul Harrell's videos that resonated with me, entitled "Shotguns don't suck for home defense". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiHHgjaR0TI&t=648s


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 Post subject: Re: Stick to one platform?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 4:14 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2005 7:27 pm
Posts: 26
Location: Texas
Some other points also led me to the belief that a shotgun for recreational/personal protection was the most practical for me.

First, it has to be enjoyable to shoot and secondly convenient, or maybe vice versa.
I'm not a range guy. I don't like shooting ranges for a variety of reasons, chief among them being the amount of incredibly stupid crap I've seen ppl do without even realizing that someone ( Me! ) could have easily been unintentionally killed or severely injured.

I know that if it's not fun to shoot or it's inconvenient to find a place I can be comfortable shooting, I'm not going to do it. I've owned literally hundreds of handguns and yet I've spent more time buying/selling/reading about guns than I ever spent actually shooting them. Hence the lack of skills needed to responsibly use one for personal protection.

Just from personal observation, I know I can take a shotgun out to an empty cow pasture, launch clay birds in the air and not endanger anyone by shooting at them. No Tall berm required, no reinforced backstop.
Obviously I'm talking birdshot and not slugs here. The point being, it's very fun and convenient, for me.


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 Post subject: Re: Stick to one platform?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 4:33 pm 
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If you can train with a shotgun and won't train with a standard rifle, then, absolutely, go with the shotgun.


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 Post subject: Re: Stick to one platform?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:57 am 
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Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:07 am
Posts: 71
FBI statistics for gunfire exchange AVERAGES nationally in a shootout/shooting:

Rounds exchanged- 4
Distance at which rounds exchanged- 7 yards.

With those statistics per the FBI I’m not saying an AR isnt better for HD but what i am saying is with those statists is an AR ISNT better for HD. Make sense?

I can go on at length why departments have switched to ARs (politics, need to spend increased budgets, conspiracy theory’s, BS lies, police state).

In the end for HD your hard pressed to beat a $200 used 12 gauge Remington 870 with an 18” barrel.


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 Post subject: Re: Stick to one platform?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:26 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:01 am
Posts: 5602
Location: Newton Kansas
mikemck wrote:
I have to ask, why would an AR be better for personal protection than a shotgun?

It seems to be that the role of a shotgun for the Military and/or the Police is going to be very different than it is for personal protection/home defense.

It is, BUT, due to the fact that the AR is standard chambered for a relatively low-powered varminting cartridge, it is actually WORSE at wall over-penetration than Buckshot (let alone Slugs), it is certainly better effectiveness than ANY handgun, and, admittedly, Home Invasions are happening more and more utilizing MORE invaders than just 1 or 2.

I also prefer the shotgun, in the hands of an experienced user, there is NO arguing it's sledgehammer effectiveness, you don't have to hit people 3, 4, 5, 6 times, BUT, frankly, the AR is easier for amateurs, and is capable of a far larger VOLUME of fire.

Just recently, a E Houston home was invaded by 2, 3 more waited in the car.

When it was all said and done, 3 of the 5 were Ambient Temperature, 2 were hospitalized (under Police Guardianship), the homeowner was un-harmed, and un-charged (got a police "Attaboy").

Homeowner had an AK.

_________________
I don't always venture out into the sub-freezing darkness, but when I do, it is hunting season, and I carry a Browning. Stay hungry my friends.


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 Post subject: Re: Stick to one platform?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:59 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2005 7:27 pm
Posts: 26
Location: Texas
Well, I must have learned something from either the actual shooting or the many video's I watched. I decided to take the Mossberg 500 out today one last time before I sold it off, and found that it was actually fun to shoot this time.
I used the push/pull technique I read or heard about and maybe that made the difference, or a combination of just getting used to shooting 12 gauge shotguns.

Anyway, using the 500 is much easier for me than the Supernova. Trying to put the Supernova on safe is a PITA and getting to the action release also requires some wrangling around.

I was ready yesterday to stick with the Supernova and assume the controls would be easier for me once I got used to them, but the 500 is just better for me from the get go. And of course the Shockwave's have the same controls, so I guess it's Mossberg all the way.
This approach feels like a good decision rather than having two different platforms to get used to.

I can see now I'll probably need to get myself an AR at some point, just so I'll know first hand if it's a better option for me.
In the meantime, my plan is to keep buying ammo and shoot as much as I can for as long as it's fun.

I would like to thank all who have taken time to provide input and advice, it is always much appreciated.


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 Post subject: Re: Stick to one platform?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:35 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:01 am
Posts: 5602
Location: Newton Kansas
Well, you may not live long enough to see ARs cost less than they do right now.

I am not a huge fan (and yes, I have years of experience), but 4 or so yrs ago I built a Hog Rifle, a .308W AR (technically an SR25/LR308).
My 7 yr old (then) liked it so much he asked me to make one his size.
So I did, 2 yrs ago. 16" carbine, collapsable stock, scoped for deer or coyote, light.
I just finished development of deer hunting ammo for it. My youngest daughter will join me hunting this winter with either it or the .270W BAR while I use the .308 BAR.

_________________
I don't always venture out into the sub-freezing darkness, but when I do, it is hunting season, and I carry a Browning. Stay hungry my friends.


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 Post subject: Re: Stick to one platform?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:17 pm 
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In competition I have seen, and had, more malfunctions with a pump than an auto. Even though these things are totally mechanically reliable, the weak link is YOU. People get excited under the stress of trying to beat the clock and short stroke them. While competition is stressful, it is probably not as stressful as a home invasion, especially one where the bad guys are shooting at you. I keep a semi-auto Benelli beside my bed.

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You can vote yourself into socialism, but you have to shoot your way out of it.


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 Post subject: Re: Stick to one platform?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:35 am 
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Germansheperd wrote:
FBI statistics for gunfire exchange AVERAGES nationally in a shootout/shooting:

Rounds exchanged- 4
Distance at which rounds exchanged- 7 yards.

With those statistics per the FBI I’m not saying an AR isnt better for HD but what i am saying is with those statists is an AR ISNT better for HD. Make sense?

I can go on at length why departments have switched to ARs (politics, need to spend increased budgets, conspiracy theory’s, BS lies, police state).

In the end for HD your hard pressed to beat a $200 used 12 gauge Remington 870 with an 18” barrel.


Those statistics are for all shootings, not HD, specifically. and I think 95% of those shoot outs involved a pistol.
As for penetration. Birdshot doesn't have enough, and I think #4 buck and bigger penetrates MORE than a 55 grain bullet (due to yaw at HV when hitting something.)

As long as it has a light, you are good. pistol rifle or shotgun. But the use of a shotgun as primary choice for a tactical weapon? Those days have closed.


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 Post subject: Re: Stick to one platform?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:54 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
Posts: 4328
Not sure what a ‘tactical weapon’ is......but the shotgun is alive and well, and in some places, has been making a comeback as a SD/HD firearm.


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 Post subject: Re: Stick to one platform?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 1:38 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:01 am
Posts: 5602
Location: Newton Kansas
A "tactical weapon" would be a weapon you are using in a "tactical" situation.

ADJECTIVE
relating to or constituting actions carefully planned to gain a specific military end.
"as a tactical officer in the field he had no equal"

(of bombing or weapons) done or for use in immediate support of military or naval operations.Often contrasted with strategic.

(of a person or their actions) showing adroit planning; aiming at an end beyond the immediate action.
"in a tactical retreat, she moved into a hotel with her daughters"

If you are at home, and someone is trying to, or is successful at, forcibly entering your home to do you harm, you have a "tactical" situation, and "good tactics" will be of benefit to you.



Not to be confused with "Tacticool". ;)

_________________
I don't always venture out into the sub-freezing darkness, but when I do, it is hunting season, and I carry a Browning. Stay hungry my friends.


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 Post subject: Re: Stick to one platform?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 10:12 am 
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Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
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Yeah.... thanks. I know what it means, but it’s so hopelessly overused these days, I like to poke a little fun at all the tacti-cool crowd, and their leaders, the enter-trainers. It seems if it ain’t tactical-cool colored, and adorned with all manner of trig-diggity gadgets, it can’t be used for self defense of you or your home......uh, um, I’m sorry ‘tactical deployment of my hardened compound.

A gun is a gun, a baseball bat is a bat, a knife is a knife. The mind is the weapon, and the action or plan of action is the tactic. My opinion anyway after decades of bombardment from the tacticioolie’s:-)


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 Post subject: Re: Stick to one platform?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 11:06 pm 
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Totally personal preference. But if it was me-and I was starting from zero-I think I would train with a pistol. It's awfully nice to be able to open/close doors and flip light switches with a free hand when clearing your home at night. That's not to say you couldn't do that with a pump shotgun. Again-personal preference. I don't know that I would trust myself to not short-stroke a pump gun under stress, and I prefer the speed and magazine capacity of a modern semi-auto handgun. A handgun + weaponlight is the winning home defense weapon for me. Full-disclosure: I'm a total mall-ninja with zero training beyond occasional indoor rimfire, trap, and pistol shooting.


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 Post subject: Re: Stick to one platform?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:18 am 
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NWFRS wrote:
Totally personal preference. But if it was me-and I was starting from zero-I think I would train with a pistol. It's awfully nice to be able to open/close doors and flip light switches with a free hand when clearing your home at night. That's not to say you couldn't do that with a pump shotgun. Again-personal preference. I don't know that I would trust myself to not short-stroke a pump gun under stress, and I prefer the speed and magazine capacity of a modern semi-auto handgun. A handgun + weaponlight is the winning home defense weapon for me. Full-disclosure: I'm a total mall-ninja with zero training beyond occasional indoor rimfire, trap, and pistol shooting.


My HD weapon is a pistol. It takes more training but is handy for all the reasons you mentioned.
FWIW I know a LOT of former/current special forces/infantry types. 95% have a pistol as their primary go to at home. Especially with kids.

probably 80% have a glock of some kind to do that (and of those, over half a G19)

In the days when most folks had a bolt action for deer and a shotgun for everything else, the shotgun was the go-to. Those days are, thankfully, gone.
I'd also say with prices the way they are, everyone should have an AR just on general principle.


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 Post subject: Re: Stick to one platform?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:18 am 
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I prefer a shotgun as my "tactic" is to take cover at the head of the stairs and blast anything that enters that narrow choke point.



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You can vote yourself into socialism, but you have to shoot your way out of it.


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