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 Post subject: Question on SD Shotgun Longevity
PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 10:07 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:27 pm
Posts: 189
One of the things that amazes me about shotguns is the longevity of the barrels. I do get that a non rifled shotgun barrel in the modern era from most manufacturers will last and last. Generally items like springs an bolts and actions will need work well before barrels are worn out. I understand.

What I was wondering is the difference between the typical I have 100k thought my over under (shooting birds or clays) vs a tactical smoothbore that sees hard rounds of 00, 000, and slugs.

I love all types of shotguns. I have many. I built up an 870 Police with some mods and I keep round counts. I have about 1200 rounds of buck and slugs through this one. It's been fantastic for me. It has the original front bead that I want to change to the same ghost site rear and big dot tritium up fornt I have on my 11-87 Police. I was also thinking of having it drilled for compensation like VanComp.

The process of what I want to do has me thinking. Diets of slugs and 00 what is a realistic round count for a barrel?

Please, there is no science here and an answer of if you can afford to shoot it out you can buy a new one is NOT anything helpful and provides zero to the discussion. I built this one up and I will certainly hand it down to my kids. Wondering who has 10k 15k or more of something other than bird shot.




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 Post subject: Re: Question on SD Shotgun Longevity
PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 6:24 am 
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Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 6:28 pm
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Location: Skeet and Trap Fields
Well, with my tactical SD "shottie", I have killed 11,501 home intruders to date using both buck shot and slugs. So I know they will last at least that long. :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Question on SD Shotgun Longevity
PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 11:35 am 
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Biscut wrote:
What I was wondering is the difference between the typical I have 100k thought my over under (shooting birds or clays) vs a tactical smoothbore that sees hard rounds of 00, 000, and slugs.


No difference. No basis as to why there would be.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 1:18 pm 
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--deleted--

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Last edited by desmobob on Fri Oct 02, 2020 8:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Question on SD Shotgun Longevity
PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 4:08 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:27 pm
Posts: 189
RandyWakeman wrote:
Biscut wrote:
What I was wondering is the difference between the typical I have 100k thought my over under (shooting birds or clays) vs a tactical smoothbore that sees hard rounds of 00, 000, and slugs.


No difference. No basis as to why there would be.


No difference? 8/9 pellets at a 1600+ fps no different than the field load I use (7 1/2 1200fps)?? No difference with the 1220fps field load and a slug? Doesn't seem right. I'm asking because it goes against everything I know which is mostly rifles. I'm not looking to poke the bear I have a legitimate curiosity.


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 Post subject: Re: Question on SD Shotgun Longevity
PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 4:46 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 6:28 pm
Posts: 1053
Location: Skeet and Trap Fields
Biscut wrote:
RandyWakeman wrote:
Biscut wrote:
What I was wondering is the difference between the typical I have 100k thought my over under (shooting birds or clays) vs a tactical smoothbore that sees hard rounds of 00, 000, and slugs.


No difference. No basis as to why there would be.


No difference? 8/9 pellets at a 1600+ fps no different than the field load I use (7 1/2 1200fps)?? No difference with the 1220fps field load and a slug? Doesn't seem right. I'm asking because it goes against everything I know which is mostly rifles. I'm not looking to poke the bear I have a legitimate curiosity.


No difference is the right answer. A shotgun is not a rifle: Apples/Oranges.


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 Post subject: Re: Question on SD Shotgun Longevity
PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 5:04 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:11 am
Posts: 4099
Location: Western Tampa, FL
I am only relying on memory but I seem to recall where Boss had shot over 1,000,000 rounds through one of their guns they used for testing, and then took measurements. The "wear" was inconsequential and only a few thousands of an inch. I can't remember the source but it might have been Greener's "The Gun and Its Development."

That gun was used with smaller shot than buckshot, but it should emphasize and tell you that you don't have anything to be concerned about. Good luck!


Last edited by oyeme on Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Question on SD Shotgun Longevity
PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 5:54 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
Posts: 5732
Trying to compare barrel life of ANY shotgun barrel to that of a rifle is a waste of time.

Velocity, projectile material, and tolerances are apples to oranges. Unlikely any one person would ‘shoot out’ a shotgun barrel. But go ahead and try if it’s that much of an issue. Check back in at 25k slugs and 50k buckshot. Good luck.


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 Post subject: Re: Question on SD Shotgun Longevity
PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 7:55 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:27 pm
Posts: 189
Guys, I appreciate the responses. This question was an inquisitory mind wondering. I did not and don't worry about the longevity and I also did not compare a shotgun to a rifle. I was explaining coming from mostly rifles I could not comprehend how 1200 bird shot and 1600 00 compare in a barrel for wear. Just trying to explain where my head was.

This thread was for me to get some education. Not looking for anything else.


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 Post subject: Re: Question on SD Shotgun Longevity
PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:00 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2014 2:32 pm
Posts: 76
About 8 years into my career I was the officer-in-charge of the firearms and tactics training unit of LAPD. At the time, (circa 1984), we used the Ithaca M37 for academy training and for general field use. We did an informal study at the time and discovered that we had guns in the academy inventory that had put more than 100k rounds down range. Most of those rounds were 3 dram equivalent, 1 1/8oz., 7.5 shot. We knew also that about 15% of the 100k figure included 3" magnum loads of 00 buck, with either 9 or 12 pellets.

We found zero guns with any barrel-specific issues we could attribute to volume of rounds fired. Other parts failed from time-to-time, but the barrels showed virtually no differences between high volume and low volume guns.

And, btw, the guns issued to the field were brand new from the factory and went directly to the field after an inspection by the armory. Field guns are fired rarely, if at all. So, in theory, a field gun issued new from the armory would last forever.


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 Post subject: Re: Question on SD Shotgun Longevity
PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:32 pm 
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The barrel is just about the last thing to wear out on a shotgun. If you or your department can afford enough shells to wear out a shotgun you can certainly afford to replace it. The gun is the cheap part.

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 Post subject: Re: Question on SD Shotgun Longevity
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:36 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:01 am
Posts: 6077
Location: Newton Kansas
Biscut wrote:
RandyWakeman wrote:
Biscut wrote:
What I was wondering is the difference between the typical I have 100k thought my over under (shooting birds or clays) vs a tactical smoothbore that sees hard rounds of 00, 000, and slugs.


No difference. No basis as to why there would be.


No difference? 8/9 pellets at a 1600+ fps no different than the field load I use (7 1/2 1200fps)?? No difference with the 1220fps field load and a slug? Doesn't seem right. I'm asking because it goes against everything I know which is mostly rifles. I'm not looking to poke the bear I have a legitimate curiosity.

Correct.

NEITHER puts any "wear" or any "undue strain" on the barrel, so there is zero difference to the gun as to whether it shoots 100,000 1,000fps target loads or 100,000 1,600fps slugs, or buckshot.

That steel barrel doesn't care.

That same barrel, whose steel ignores pressure below about 60,000psi, totally ignores the difference between some "low-pressure" 8ksi load and a Full Bark, 11,500psi load, makes no difference whatsoever in Barrel Lifespan.

What "wears out" RIFLE barrels is literally MELTING away of the rifling in the throat of the barrel, which, once the first couple inches of barrel in front of the chamber have become un-rifled "freebore", this isn't good for accuracy 500 yards away.
A barrel gotten HOT (prairie dogging) may be throat-eroded badly in just a few HUNDRED shots. The hotter the steel gets, the easier it is to melt off the face of the rifling every shot.
The same barrel, in the same gun, kept from getting that hot by limiting shooting at 1 time to permit cooling, will last thousands of shots.
Still, Throat Erosion kilsl rifle barrels, even in the best of care, in around 15,000 rounds or so.
The barrel is fine, it shoots safely, it's accuracy at distance goes away.

The copper bullet STILL puts no appreciable "wear" on that steel barrel rifling, or the bore diameter, unless you go to artificially introducing abrasives in there.
The major "wear" on rifle barrels (other the throat erosion) is from cleaning rods, not from bullets screaming down them at 3,000fps.

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 Post subject: Re: Question on SD Shotgun Longevity
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:36 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:27 pm
Posts: 189
R10D wrote:
About 8 years into my career I was the officer-in-charge of the firearms and tactics training unit of LAPD. At the time, (circa 1984), we used the Ithaca M37 for academy training and for general field use. We did an informal study at the time and discovered that we had guns in the academy inventory that had put more than 100k rounds down range. Most of those rounds were 3 dram equivalent, 1 1/8oz., 7.5 shot. We knew also that about 15% of the 100k figure included 3" magnum loads of 00 buck, with either 9 or 12 pellets.

We found zero guns with any barrel-specific issues we could attribute to volume of rounds fired. Other parts failed from time-to-time, but the barrels showed virtually no differences between high volume and low volume guns.

And, btw, the guns issued to the field were brand new from the factory and went directly to the field after an inspection by the armory. Field guns are fired rarely, if at all. So, in theory, a field gun issued new from the armory would last forever.


Interesting. My department uses Rem 11-87 Police models and has for the 20+ years I've been there. Ours are used for about 800 rounds each time twice a year for firearms training. After training they are cleaned and a new gas seal is installed. I think the idea if academy guns and field guns is a good one.


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 Post subject: Re: Question on SD Shotgun Longevity
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:38 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:27 pm
Posts: 189
Ezra Smack wrote:
The barrel is just about the last thing to wear out on a shotgun. If you or your department can afford enough shells to wear out a shotgun you can certainly afford to replace it. The gun is the cheap part.


Thank you Ezra but that wasn't the focal point of the question. Nothing to do with cost. You are correct though, ammo prices are such many guns could be purchased before one is worn out.


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 Post subject: Re: Question on SD Shotgun Longevity
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:43 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:27 pm
Posts: 189
OldStufferA5#1911 wrote:
Biscut wrote:
RandyWakeman wrote:
Biscut wrote:
What I was wondering is the difference between the typical I have 100k thought my over under (shooting birds or clays) vs a tactical smoothbore that sees hard rounds of 00, 000, and slugs.


No difference. No basis as to why there would be.


No difference? 8/9 pellets at a 1600+ fps no different than the field load I use (7 1/2 1200fps)?? No difference with the 1220fps field load and a slug? Doesn't seem right. I'm asking because it goes against everything I know which is mostly rifles. I'm not looking to poke the bear I have a legitimate curiosity.

Correct.

NEITHER puts any "wear" or any "undue strain" on the barrel, so there is zero difference to the gun as to whether it shoots 100,000 1,000fps target loads or 100,000 1,600fps slugs, or buckshot.

That steel barrel doesn't care.

That same barrel, whose steel ignores pressure below about 60,000psi, totally ignores the difference between some "low-pressure" 8ksi load and a Full Bark, 11,500psi load, makes no difference whatsoever in Barrel Lifespan.

What "wears out" RIFLE barrels is literally MELTING away of the rifling in the throat of the barrel, which, once the first couple inches of barrel in front of the chamber have become un-rifled "freebore", this isn't good for accuracy 500 yards away.
A barrel gotten HOT (prairie dogging) may be throat-eroded badly in just a few HUNDRED shots. The hotter the steel gets, the easier it is to melt off the face of the rifling every shot.
The same barrel, in the same gun, kept from getting that hot by limiting shooting at 1 time to permit cooling, will last thousands of shots.
Still, Throat Erosion kilsl rifle barrels, even in the best of care, in around 15,000 rounds or so.
The barrel is fine, it shoots safely, it's accuracy at distance goes away.

The copper bullet STILL puts no appreciable "wear" on that steel barrel rifling, or the bore diameter, unless you go to artificially introducing abrasives in there.
The major "wear" on rifle barrels (other the throat erosion) is from cleaning rods, not from bullets screaming down them at 3,000fps.


Thanks for the reply. I'm well versed on throat erosion. I blew a throat out in about 900 rounds in a Browning A Bolt 25WSSM. All handloads at high velocity. There was time taken between all shots as I new it was a burner of a cartridge. Amazing how fast it eroded even with substantial care to slow the erosion.

Shotgun barrel longevity was one of those questions I was interested in learning more about.


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 Post subject: Re: Question on SD Shotgun Longevity
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 4:23 pm 
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I have shot competitively in various combat shotgun matches with a Benelli Super 90 that was made in 1987. When I started to dabble in 3 gun a couple of years back I changed the magazine spring. That is supposed to be the first thing to wear out so I replaced it before it did. I bought half a dozen replacement springs just in case. That should last me until my 200th birthday.

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 Post subject: Re: Question on SD Shotgun Longevity
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 4:36 pm 
Shotgun Expert
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Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:02 am
Posts: 26625
Location: Plainfield, IL
Biscut wrote:
RandyWakeman wrote:
Biscut wrote:
What I was wondering is the difference between the typical I have 100k thought my over under (shooting birds or clays) vs a tactical smoothbore that sees hard rounds of 00, 000, and slugs.


No difference. No basis as to why there would be.


No difference? 8/9 pellets at a 1600+ fps no different than the field load I use (7 1/2 1200fps)?? No difference with the 1220fps field load and a slug? Doesn't seem right. I'm asking because it goes against everything I know which is mostly rifles. I'm not looking to poke the bear I have a legitimate curiosity.


That is correct-- no difference.

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http://randywakeman.com/


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 Post subject: Re: Question on SD Shotgun Longevity
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2020 9:41 pm 
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Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:01 am
Posts: 6077
Location: Newton Kansas
What "shortens the life" of shotgun barrels, is either shooting them with a barrel blockage (wad, mud wasp nest, etc.), or running over them with a vehicle.

Much beyond that, nothing.



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