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 Post subject: Small primer 45 ACP brass, or large?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:36 pm 
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My short Lee charging die came today, and it works the best to charge 45 ACP cases on my Lee Classic Turret Press using the Lee Auto Disc charger. I got it it tossing exactly 6 grains of Unique, time after time, then loaded five empty cases to check for function, and got everything right, and commenced to loading shells!

And found out real quick that most of my 200 or so cases have large primer holes, but a few have small primer holes.

My 200 Starline brand new cases have large primer holes.

I’d began with the small primer arm in the press, but if it had been the other way around it might have been dangerous, trying to ram a large pistol primer in a small pistol primer hole.

Loading for any automatic pistol is a pain compared with loading for a revolver, from chasing down the brass to not being able to put a good roll crimp on the case to worrying about function.

But I didn’t know that the ammunition companies aren’t consistent on using small or large pistol primers on 45 ACP.

Guess there’s nothing to do but gripe and moan about it, but be careful to check which 45 ACP case you have, before loading.



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 Post subject: Re: Small primer 45 ACP brass, or large?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:55 am 
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a pox on the son-of-a-bitch that thought it was a good idea to make small primer 45 ACP brass.

May the fleas of one thousand camels infest their arm pits.

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 Post subject: Re: Small primer 45 ACP brass, or large?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:38 pm 
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Loading these, once you get past the small primer cases, you realize that 45 ACP is the best of the automatic pistols to reload for.

First, everybody and his brother and cousin, has a 1911 45 ACP and if he doesn’t he can buy one of many brands, in every state in the union.

And although the 45 ACP head spaces on the mouth of the case, there’s no need to trim cases. Max length is .898, and trim length .888. Brand new cases average .894, and as you shoot them they shrink down. Eventually they show cracks and you toss them.

The 45ACP loads using standard powders like Bullseye, Red Dot, or Unique, and many others. You can load cheap lead bullets, that weigh 225 grains, with a flat point.

It’s nearly a mid range 44 Special or 45 Long Colt power level automatic pistol. It’s a thumper, with real power, to knock down a feral hog or shoot a deer, if you ever had the chance.

But you’ll still have to chase down every case the pistol will spit out, if you want to recycle it.


Which has caused me to put 10 old large primer military brass with 40 small primer brass reloads.

Those, are going to be my duty loads for patrolling my farm and Spout Spring Hollow.

I’ll shoot them and let em’ fly.:)

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Last edited by SuperXOne on Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Small primer 45 ACP brass, or large?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:55 pm 
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I've run into them, too. Probably some kind of target ammo, as you don't need a large pistol primer to ignite 6 grains of Unique.

What headstamp is on them?

FWIW, I've got one piece of military brass dated 1952. I keep reloading it. My load is usually 5.0 gr. WW231 and a 200 gr lead SWC, WLP primer.

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 Post subject: Re: Small primer 45 ACP brass, or large?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:11 pm 
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Zbigniew wrote:
I've run into them, too. Probably some kind of target ammo, as you don't need a large pistol primer to ignite 6 grains of Unique.

What headstamp is on them?

FWIW, I've got one piece of military brass dated 1952. I keep reloading it. My load is usually 5.0 gr. WW231 and a 200 gr lead SWC, WLP primer.



I done took a pitcher of em’

Image

https://imgur.com/a/MBQtFE6



Seems a mongrel bunch of mixed brass.

They will not be reloaded again.

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 Post subject: Re: Small primer 45 ACP brass, or large?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:34 pm 
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mark-60 wrote:
a pox on the son-of-a-bitch that thought it was a good idea to make small primer 45 ACP brass.

May the fleas of one thousand camels infest their arm pits.

This in spades.

I run into them all the time. You just have to make sure you check when sorting your brass. Blaser is another headstamp to watch for.

tp

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 Post subject: Re: Small primer 45 ACP brass, or large?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:36 pm 
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Zbigniew wrote:
I've run into them, too. Probably some kind of target ammo, as you don't need a large pistol primer to ignite 6 grains of Unique.

What headstamp is on them?

FWIW, I've got one piece of military brass dated 1952. I keep reloading it. My load is usually 5.0 gr. WW231 and a 200 gr lead SWC, WLP primer.

They aren't target loads; I have them on a wide variety of brands; I just separate them so i don't try to deprime and reprime with them mixed in with the large primer ones.

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 Post subject: Re: Small primer 45 ACP brass, or large?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:17 am 
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Looking up online about this subject, it seems that it’s only recently some ammunition makers are switching the 45 ACP to small primers.

There’s a ting savings to the materiel cost of making a small versus a large primer, is part of it.

Most of it has to do with the popularity of the .223 and 9mm, both of which can use identical size primers.

CCI small rifle and small pistol primers are identical, sold in different boxes.

Large pistol and large rifle primers are different. The large rifle primer is harder, and it’s a tiny bit deeper.

If you ran an ammunition company, you’d be selling semi tractor trailer loads of .233, 9mm, 38 Special and .357 magnum and after that, probably 45 ACP.

If you’d switch over to small primers for the 45 ACP, it’s a low pressure round, it does the job, and most of your customers today don’t chase the brass and reload. You can load all your most popular rounds with the same small primer, and ease procurement and increase economies of scale.

The online boards claim that for the same powder charge the small primer 45s are measurably slower, but an ammo company can adjust a powder charge to get about any velocity desired.

Starline Brass still makes the 45 ACP with large primer holes, bless em’.

Which these days is good, because due to high demand small rifle and pistol primers can hardly be bought at any price.

Besides, it’s easier to work with larger primers, less fiddly.

But in the future we may see most of the new 45 ACP switch over to small primers.

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 Post subject: Re: Small primer 45 ACP brass, or large?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:50 pm 
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Quote:
Looking up online about this subject, it seems that it’s only recently some ammunition makers are switching the 45 ACP to small primers.


I remember seeing small primer .45 ACP when I first started loading .45 ACP, somewhere around mid 1980's. Except for one box of Federal, all my brass was picked up off the ground, left by others.

FWIW, I've also seen Large Primer .38 Special.

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 Post subject: Re: Small primer 45 ACP brass, or large?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:48 pm 
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Zbigniew wrote:
Quote:
Looking up online about this subject, it seems that it’s only recently some ammunition makers are switching the 45 ACP to small primers.


I remember seeing small primer .45 ACP when I first started loading .45 ACP, somewhere around mid 1980's. Except for one box of Federal, all my brass was picked up off the ground, left by others.

FWIW, I've also seen Large Primer .38 Special.


The boards I read discussed large primer 38 Special Peters cases.

In a brief time period between about 1930 and the introduction of the .357 Magnum, Elmer Keith (with some help from friends) persuaded Smith and Wesson to manufacture the 38-44 Outdoorsman. Peters made the cartridges. There must have been fewer lawyers then, as it was an extremely heavy 38 Special load, but using a large pistol primer accomplished two objects. It aided a little in igniting the heavier charge, and served to set the round apart from ordinary 38 Specials.

As late as the sixties Peters was still producing ordinary 158 grain round nose 38 Specials on those machines set up for the 38-44 rounds.


There have been a few small primer 45 ACP target rounds made for decades. Maybe it was marketing, or maybe the engineers found some accuracy advantage using small primers.

But recently large ammunition makers such as Fiochi have switched the 45 ACP over to small primers, presumably to simply production because they use so many small primers for .223 and 9mm and 38 Special rounds. Due to the largely unsupported case in a 1911, the 45 ACP will always be a low pressure round, where a small primer can get the job done.

https://imgur.com/a/ITXlMCr

Which raises the question, why did they use large primers back when the 45 ACP was standardized?

My guess is they used the same primers as the 45 Long Colt, the same as they used the same .452 bullets.

Back then they could convert the loading machines for 45 Long Colt over to 45 ACP, with minimal effort.

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 Post subject: Re: Small primer 45 ACP brass, or large?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:37 pm 
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Get rid of all the small primer brass. It is an oddball and will cause you nothing but trouble.

BTW: 6 grains of Unique is what I have been loading in .45 ACP since 1979. Primarily because it is bulky enough to make it hard to double charge a case without noticing it. Still, visually inspect the powder level in every single round.

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 Post subject: Re: Small primer 45 ACP brass, or large?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:13 pm 
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Ezra Smack wrote:
Get rid of all the small primer brass. It is an oddball and will cause you nothing but trouble.

BTW: 6 grains of Unique is what I have been loading in .45 ACP since 1979. Primarily because it is bulky enough to make it hard to double charge a case without noticing it. Still, visually inspect the powder level in every single round.



Have you ever ran any through a Chronograph? I understand 6 grains of Unique supposed to duplicate the 830 FPS hardball ammunition.

Unique is a wonderful powder. 5 grains under 158 grain bullet in a 38 Special. 6 grains under 230 in 45 ACP, and 7.5 grains under 240 grain 44 Special rounds, is what I use.

And from what I read it’s good for mid range 357 mag and 44 mag loads, even for Trapdoor 45-70 loads.

Versatile stuff.

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 Post subject: Re: Small primer 45 ACP brass, or large?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:46 pm 
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SuperXOne wrote:


Have you ever ran any through a Chronograph? I understand 6 grains of Unique supposed to duplicate the 830 FPS hardball ammunition.


That is right. It will also "make major" behind a 200 grain Semi wadcutter. Unique is the most versatile powder ever made. I use 6 grain not only in .45 ACP, but as a pleasant mid range load for cast .357 Magnum as well as .44 special (because I own several small frame 5 shot .44 Special revolvers and do not want to over stress them.) I also load it under a tuft of fiber in cast .45-70 405 grain "plinking" loads and for moderate 1,000 fps cast 12 gauge slug loads.

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 Post subject: Re: Small primer 45 ACP brass, or large?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:44 pm 
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SuperXOne wrote:
And although the 45 ACP head spaces on the mouth of the case, there’s no need to trim cases. Max length is .898, and trim length .888. Brand new cases average .894, and as you shoot them they shrink down. Eventually they show cracks and you toss them.


SuperXOne, do the 45ACP shrink if you shoot them in revolvers also? I am curious because I have a convertible 45 Ruger and prefer the 45 ACP in that gun to the 45 Long for most shooting. But I wondered If I should be watching the length of them.


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 Post subject: Re: Small primer 45 ACP brass, or large?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2020 7:34 pm 
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JoeCool wrote:
SuperXOne wrote:
And although the 45 ACP head spaces on the mouth of the case, there’s no need to trim cases. Max length is .898, and trim length .888. Brand new cases average .894, and as you shoot them they shrink down. Eventually they show cracks and you toss them.


SuperXOne, do the 45ACP shrink if you shoot them in revolvers also? I am curious because I have a convertible 45 Ruger and prefer the 45 ACP in that gun to the 45 Long for most shooting. But I wondered If I should be watching the length of them.


I looked up why the 45 ACP shrinks when fired.

The source said it was because when fired, the case runs forward and smacks the front of the chamber. Keep firing it enough and the case will shrink below .888 and then, in a 1911 it headspaces on the extractor and still fires.

I don’t know how a 45 ACP case could know, whether in was in a revolver or 1911.

Sounds like a good excuse to use the micrometer on a few of your fired cases.

They might be too short!

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 Post subject: Re: Small primer 45 ACP brass, or large?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2020 8:20 pm 
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SuperXOne wrote:
I looked up why the 45 ACP shrinks when fired.
The source said it was because when fired, the case runs forward and smacks the front of the chamber.

I don't doubt that it shrinks even though I thought it would expand.
The problem is that explanation from your source. The source
could be true, but on the surface that seems unlikely.

My reading of that tells me, Upon firing all this gas is expanding
rapidly inside the case, Two opposite forces are applied,
(1) the gas is pushing the case backward against the bolt face,
(2) the gas is pushing the bullet forward.

So case and bolt both fly backward sending the slide to the
rear, and we know pretty well that does really happen. So how
does the case run forward while it is pushing backward?
I think the source must have left something out.


Last edited by JoeCool on Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Small primer 45 ACP brass, or large?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2020 9:27 pm 
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Rimless semi-auto pistol cases actually headspace on the extractor if they are a little too short. This is how you can, at least sometimes sometimes, fire a .40 in a 10MM or a .380 in a 9MM. That metal hook keeps the case from going any farther into the chamber.

BTW, I have been reusing .45 brass that dates back as far as the 1980's and have never trimmed the first one.

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 Post subject: Re: Small primer 45 ACP brass, or large?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2020 9:54 pm 
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JoeCool wrote:
SuperXOne wrote:
I looked up why the 45 ACP shrinks when fired.
The source said it was because when fired, the case runs forward and smacks the front of the chamber.

I don't doubt that it shrinks even though I thought it would expand.
The problem is that explanation from your source. The source
could be true, but on the surface that seems unlikely.

My reading of that tells me, Upon firing all this gas is expanding
rapidly inside the case, Two opposite forces are applied,
(1) the gas is pushing the case backward against the bolt face,
(2) the gas is pushing the bullet forward.

So case and bolt bother fly backward sending the slide to the
rear, and we know pretty well that does really happen. So how
does the case run forward while it is pushing backward?
I think the source must have left something out.


Here’s the source, and there are others.

http://www.massreloading.com/loading45ACP.html

I admit to not being fully able to conceptualize the idea of headspace.

We’ve all had it drilled in us to trim our cases, lest excessive headspace turn old Betsy into a grenade going off a few inches in front of our right eye.

Maybe the 45 ACP shrinks when fired because the Great Gun Prophet John Moses Browning purposely designed it so, right before they shot the slaughter beeves in the stockyards in 1905.

But my handy $15 digital micrometer of the finest Chinese make, confirms that every case I have left begins life at about .894 and begins shrinking, in my 1911.

Mine isn’t a real Colt, it’s a Taurus, but they shrink, all the same.

Mebbe they might behave a little different in a Ruger cylinder.

But as the little boy says, how would they know, how would they know?.:)

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 Post subject: Re: Small primer 45 ACP brass, or large?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:37 am 
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Well, anyway, thanks for the info, it is always a big deal when I find out something I believed was dead wrong.
Quote:
The case becomes shorter because the case mouth slams into the chamber when the cartridge headspaces,

and the case head slams back against the breech face when it fires.

Maybe it is the chambering does the shortening, the first part of the explanation given in the source.


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 Post subject: Re: Small primer 45 ACP brass, or large?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2020 8:52 am 
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JoeCool wrote:
Well, anyway, thanks for the info, it is always a big deal when I find out something I believed was dead wrong.
Quote:
The case becomes shorter because the case mouth slams into the chamber when the cartridge headspaces,

and the case head slams back against the breech face when it fires.

Maybe it is the chambering does the shortening, the first part of the explanation given in the source.


For fun, remove your cylinder (or barrel from a 1911) and drop a loaded 45 ACP round.

Plunk, she drops in easy. It’s a loose fit.

Look at it. There’s no rim holding it. The case is straight, measure it. The front will be a smidgen swollen from holding the bullet.

But that round, is only stopped by the ridge up at the end of the chamber, that catches the mouth of the case, or else it would keep on dropping.

In a 1911 barrel, the base of the case is sticking waaay out from the end, unsupported.

How the Rugers will work without half moon clips is beyond my understanding.

Remember that JMB was trying to duplicate the 45 Long Colt in an automatic pistol, and he got pretty close.

The cases even shrink, when fired.

Please don’t tell me Browning wasn’t a genius.



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