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 Post subject: re: Hevi-shot sucks
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 8:53 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:16 pm
Posts: 135
I was at Scheels the other day, and I don't remember HD being a lot more than HS. I'll have to check the price again next time I go there(which is tomarrow! :D ).
Theres the rebates also, though. You get a $15 rebate on the 10-round boxes and $7.50 rebate on the 5-round boxes.

As for your patterning experience, well, thats just it, it's YOUR experience. I wouldnt make generalizations like that. Are you going to tell the person who has had good patterning success that it patterns for crap? No.




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 Post subject: re: Hevi-shot sucks
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 9:15 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:01 am
Posts: 45
All I know is that when I hunt with Hevishot my tags are filled and I don't have to buy a lot of it...I tried HD and I came home empty handed the first two days. :? [/code]


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 Post subject: Re: re: Hevi-shot sucks
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 9:25 pm 
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Location: Where the ducks don't come no more
duckstalker814 wrote:

well when I talked to them I was told that the goose loads are the original hevi-shot.


Yeah... thats what we just said.

Quote:
Hevi-steel is the low cost
alternative.


Incorrect. Hevi-steel is not an "alternative" or generic form of hevi-shot, because it is something COMPLETELY different altogether.


Quote:
Than[sic] Hevi-duck comes in right below lead,


No, hevi-duck is a right fair step below lead... it is acctually closer to steel than it is to lead.

Quote:
It's also in their brochure, call them to get one.


Haha... no thanks... I've dealt with them enough.

Quote:
Seems like you don't like the folks at Hevi-Shot cutEM05. They seem pretty nice to me and my dog likes 'em too! :D


No, as a matter of fact, I do not like the folks at hevi-shot. I am personally swallowing about $400 worth of the hevi-duck crap as we speak. Read the intial post and catch up on what this thread is all about. I suspect that you haven't been shooting hevi-shot very long, otherwise, you no doubt would have been purposfully deceived by Environmetals.

Moreover, when I bought the stuff I was working at a gun shop full time, and acctually established the direct purchase account with Environmetals. I specifcally remember sitting down with my boss and our account rep (whose name I wish I could remember for the life of me so I could let her know how bad she shafted us) on a conference call. My boss asked what the deal was with the hevi-shot goose/duck thing, since Remington had done sort of the same thing... but why the price difference. She gave us the read out right out of the brochure, and when the boss asked... so basically its just the amount of shot in the shell, her response was "Thats correct". We ordered around 150 cases of hevi-shot duck on that same call, and since the Lowcountry of SC doesn't have a ton of geese... passed on the HS Goose. Hey if its the same... why not save a little money... because hevi-shot is hevi-shot right?

Riding a trade name, as an industry leader, isn't unethical or deceiving at all. There seriously ought to be a class action lawsuit filed.


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 Post subject: re: Hevi-shot sucks
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 9:26 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:16 pm
Posts: 135
You tag your waterfowl in Illinois? :lol:


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 Post subject: re: Hevi-shot sucks
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 9:38 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:01 am
Posts: 45
Lawsuit - you are crazy! I think I'll find a better class of losers to go hang out with. You better be careful cutEM05 - you talk lawsuits I'm sure they can do one for slander. You are just plain crazy and I sure hope you don't hunt where I do. Don't want a Cheney incident :shock:


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 Post subject: Re: re: Hevi-shot sucks
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 9:41 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:01 am
Posts: 45
[quote="NoDak_Dude"]You tag your waterfowl in Illinois? :lol:[/quote]
:lol: what do you think?


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 Post subject: re: Hevi-shot sucks
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:53 pm 
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Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 7:36 pm
Posts: 90
hows Remingtons new wingmaster.


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 Post subject: re: Hevi-shot sucks
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 11:16 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:16 pm
Posts: 135
I think you must have shot a few swans because thats the only waterfowl I can think of that you tag. :lol: :P

Btw, you seem to be having some quote troubles.;)


Quote:
hows Remingtons new wingmaster.

I patterned the wingmaster in my 20ga with the 1/4oz of #4 and got a great pattern at 40 yards out of a full choke.


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 Post subject: Re: re: Hevi-shot sucks
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:30 am 
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duckstalker814 wrote:
Lawsuit - you are crazy! I think I'll find a better class of losers to go hang out with. You better be careful cutEM05 - you talk lawsuits I'm sure they can do one for slander. You are just plain crazy and I sure hope you don't hunt where I do. Don't want a Cheney incident :shock:


First off, it would be libel, not slander. Second, defamation applies when a person makes a false statement. This stuff is absolutely true. Third,
Quote:
I think I'll find a better class of losers to go hang out with....You are just plain crazy and I sure hope you don't hunt where I do. Don't want a Cheney incident :shock:
that sounds like a good idea. I am sure your next group will love you, especially if they like to joke about accidents where people get shot.

Jeremiah

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 Post subject: Re: re: Hevi-shot sucks
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 2:50 am 
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Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 10:55 am
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Location: Where the ducks don't come no more
duckstalker814 wrote:
Lawsuit - you are crazy! I think I'll find a better class of losers to go hang out with. You better be careful cutEM05 - you talk lawsuits I'm sure they can do one for slander. You are just plain crazy and I sure hope you don't hunt where I do. Don't want a Cheney incident :shock:


I'd welcome them to cast the first stone in the legal system.

And crazy I am not; what I am is rather preturbed that a company whose product I have supported and readily endorsed has done something that I and several dozen other waterfowlers I have spoken with feel was taking advantage of a good standing reputation built by years of success and profits just to swell profits even more. Smoke and mirrors. Thats how I feel treated, and what I would like to prevent is another hunter purchasing one shot when he honestly is convinced that he is buying another. If you paid for 93 octane just to find out it was only 89 wouldn't you feel a bit cheated?


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 Post subject: re: Hevi-shot sucks
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 9:21 am 
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Now, now, boys. All I know is, I used hevi-shot duck all this past season and it is far better than steel and much cheaper than Kent TM, Rem HD or Win XR. Don't use it if you don't like it, but it is actually quite effective on ducks and not too bad on the wallet.


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 Post subject: Re: Hevi-shot sucks
PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2020 3:22 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:05 am
Posts: 6
Hello! My name is Scott Turner, I am the Director of Sales and Marketing for HEVI-Shot. I know that this is a very old thread, but we are still getting emails regarding it, which is why I am responding.

I would like to give you some history regarding the changes of HEVI-Shot and hope you will simply delete this thread.

During 2008, in response to the increase of tungsten (5 times!) HEVI-Shot duck was reduced to 9.6g/cc and keep the HEVI-Shot Goose loads at 12g/cc. The decision was made by a predecessor who felt that it would increase the velocity of the shot and attempt to keep the shell affordable. In 2010 he was replaced and HEVI-Duck was brought back to its previous glory of 12g/cc... which it remains today... albeit very expensive. Unfortunately the metal market dictates the pricing.

HEVI-Shot is always innovating new products. We are constantly pushing the envelope to improve our products. We get it. We are hunters too. When this thread was relevant, we only had 11 employees. We are up to a whopping 27 now. HUGE name in the industry, but a small business.

Here is a quick recap of our current (2020) product line.

Waterfowl:
HEVI-Shot (Goose and Duck): 12g/cc (just like the original)
HEVI-X: 10.1g/cc
HEVI-Bismuth: 9.64g/cc
HEVI-Metal LR: 70% 7.8g/cc (Precision Steel) and 30% 9.64g/cc (Bismuth - 1 shot size smaller than the steel)
HEVI-Hammer: 85% 7.8g/cc (Precision Steel) and 15% 9.64g/cc (Bismuth same shot size as the steel)
HEVI-Steel (Duck/Goose, Snow, and Teal): 7.8g/cc

If you would like to discuss any of this with me, please reach out! [email protected]


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 Post subject: Re: Hevi-shot sucks
PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2020 4:38 pm 
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HEVI-Shot Scott wrote:
Hello! My name is Scott Turner, I am the Director of Sales and Marketing for HEVI-Shot. I know that this is a very old thread, but we are still getting emails regarding it, which is why I am responding.


Well, Scott, you decided to bring a necro-thread back to life. You don't seem aware of Hevi-Shot's record.

This was written to me by Hevi-Shot:

Quote:
Randy,

I just read your blog entitled, “The No Tox Shotshell Problem”. I would like to comment in two capacities, first as a hunter and second as the lead customer service and Hunter Service spam as well as Pro Staff Director for Hevi Shot.

First, I find some of your information informative, but your non tox blog was severely undermined by your lack of accurate details, and frankly lack of information, period. As I mentioned, I am a fanatical wing shooter and hunter. Goose hunting is my passion and I often hunt 3-5 days a week during our waterfowl season. I notice your blog attempts to use a very common ballistic calculator to sell you view on non toxic shot shells, but again you leave out vital information important to any serious wing shooter…PERFORMANCE being the most important. I have been successfully using Hevi Shot for some time now and its performance is unmatched in the industry today. That is without question. There are thousands of satisfied customers in North America that will attest to its UNMATCHED bird “thumping” power.

I notice you mention “not so heavy Hevi Shot”…First of all ‘heavy’ is an incorrect term, as the important factor is Density which is calculated as Mass (g) divided by volume (cc). This provides you with true density. I can tell you with 100% certainty that both Hevi Shot Duck AND Hevi Shot Goose are made from identical pellets, both being 12 g/cc…that is ~1.2 g/cc MORE DENSE than most lead. For about 18 months during the mid-2000’s, Hevi Shot experimented with differentiating duck loads by density and pellet count with good field success. Our consumers, however, made it clear they preferred the 12g/cc pellets and Hevi Shot Duck and Goose pellets been 12g/cc since 2008.

I have been fortunate enough to be able to kill several different duck and goose species/subspecies using Hevi Shot and nothing I have shot has come close to the killing power of Hevi Shot whether at close ranges OR extreme. In my opinion, and that of many others, Hevi Shot is the solution to using non lead shot. Now, in order for you to see these advantages you must first shoot Hevi Shot, something I would guess you have not done after reading your blog. There are many other factors that determine success in shooting Hevi Shot or any type of ammo. Our shells are engineered to provided some of the best patterns in shot shells today. This accurately partnered with a good choke system stacks the odds in your favor when birds are on the wing. You must still be an accurate shot and hit birds in order to be successful. Hevi Shot is not a miracle shell that simply requires you to point at the sky and have birds rain down…a point missed by many nay sayers of Hevi Shot. Hevi Shot Hevi 13 Turkey loads have won consecutive championships at the NWTF Turkey shoot and has held the World record for patterning for some 10 years running. Point in Fact is that Hevi Shot is perhaps the greatest innovation to wing shooting since the development of the cartridge roughly 200 years ago.

I would also like to point out that the introduction of the new Hevi Metal loads challenges your argument of price point. These shells compete directly with the so called “premium” steel loads by those other shotshell manufacturers. Hevi Metal is a highly engineered ‘blended’ load which combines both steel AND Hevi Shot pellets. It combines two alloys, Hevi Shot (tungsten, nickel, iron) and steel. It also blends shot sizes. This is engineered to accurately match the ballistic characteristics of the larger steel and smaller Hevi Shot pellets while having the added benefit of having 20% more pellets in the shell and on target than a standard steel shell. This shell produces phenomenal pattern density out to 40 yrds and the addition of the dense Hevi Shot pellets add serious lethality and bird thumping power.

In conclusion, I would ask that you honestly evaluate Hevi Shot while focusing on performance and the end result which is MORE DEAD BIRDS…MORE CLEAN KILLS…LESS SHELLS SHOT.


Thank you for your support and business!
Regards,

Sean Litrakis

Customer Service
Pro Staff Director
HEVI-Shot


My response was:

Well, Sean, I can hardly blame you for having a bit of hysterically biased bluster; some of this is quite understandable coming from a person who is “Pro Staff Director," I suppose. As far as your complaint that “heavy” is an incorrect term, it is the Hevi-Shot product line itself that has shouted “heavier than lead” the longest and the loudest, though it takes very little rational thought to understand that a pound of lead, a pound of steel, a pound of feathers, and a pound of any of the versions of Hevi-Shot weigh about the same. The actual density of the shot material isn't at all obvious from marketing materials or looking at the box, to be sure. Hevi-Shot isn't alone in this regard.

"What Chokes are recommended for the various loads?
Since HEVI-SHOT® is "heavier than lead"®, it patterns very tightly. For the turkey loads a full choke is OK. This is because the loads are fully buffered. We have use from a 665 and up. For waterfowl we recommend an improved cylinder over decoys, and modified choke for pass shooting. You may find that you need less choke (or even no choke) with HEVI-SHOT®
."

Above, as long published by Hevi-Shot on their FAQ's and a registered trademark of Hevi-Shot, "heavier than lead"®. . . Hevi-Shot now complains that "‘heavy’ is an incorrect term." Now, just where would anyone get the idea that Hevi-Shot is really "heavier than lead"®? Go figure.

As to Hevi-Shot Duck and Goose being the same, that doesn't fit well with data supplied by Hevi-Shot. Hevi-Shot Duck #4 was claimed to be 153 pellets per ounce as opposed to the 125 pellets per ounce of Hevi-Shot Goose. Lyman publishes 135 pellets per ounce for #4 lead. Based on the information supplied by Hevi-Shot directly, Hevi-Shot Duck is less dense than lead and Hevi-Shot Duck and Hevi-Shot Goose are not at all the same density.

If your interest is publishing density of your loads, no one could tell it by referring to your website, where actual density of any of your 12 gauge waterfowl loads is never mentioned. To buy into your theory that Hevi-Shot Duck and Hevi-Shot Goose are the same, one would have to ignore your own product descriptions. Hevi-Shot Duck load #43006 is 1-3/8 oz. of #6 at 1450 fps. Hevi-Shot Goose load #43106 is 1-3/8 oz. of #6 at 1350 fps. Is it the stance of Hevi-Shot to use less muzzle velocity on a goose than a duck with now theoretically identical density shot? What would anyone pay more money for a slower Hevi-Shot Goose load than for a faster Hevi-Shot Duck load with identical payloads? Your assertion that I've not used Hevi-Shot loads is completely wrong. Sean, you should read a lot more before you make wrong-headed assumptions.

As to your claim that your shells are engineered to provide great patterns, Sean, believe it or not most premium shotshells hopefully do give good patterns. Most everyone claims it and no one I know engineers shotshells to perform badly. As to your “Point in Fact is that Hevi Shot is perhaps the greatest innovation to wing shooting since the development of the cartridge roughly 200 years ago,” you really need to get a grip. I'd suggest that the development of the choke by Fred Kimble close to forty years later in 1868 is far more important to wing-shooting, as is the interchangeable screw-choke introduced in 1959 by Olin-Winchester. It may be a "point," but it is a very weak one and is as far from a fact as can exist. I'd suggest that the invention of smokeless powder in 1884 by Paul Vieille and the development of smokeless powder that followed means far more to the wingshooter than Hevi-Shot. I would also suggest that you consider that John M. Browning's contributions to wing-shooting, the world's first successful pump shotgun, the first autoloading shotgun, and the world's first successful vertical double shotgun just might exceed those you'd like to attribute to Hevi-Shot. Sean, while a little over-enthusiasm is to be expected, it doesn't make any sense to completely ignore the contributions of Fred Kimble, Paul Vieille, Olin-Winchester, and John M. Browning for the sake of your shotgun shells.

I'm all for truth in advertising when it comes to shot material density. If Hevi-Shot is doing anything in this regard, I've missed it. Federal Heavyweight shot is 15 g/cc, 25% more dense then Hevi-Shot Goose. It is hardly even-handed to claim that density is just important for one company, when Winchester HD and Federal Heavyweight both have greater density than lead. I appreciate a lecture about how to kill a bird just as much as anyone, even if it comes over forty-five years too late. If you don't know how to kill a turkey with Federal Heavyweight, a duck with Winchester HD, or a pheasant with Kent Tungsten-Matrix you really need to get more experience. Certainly “performance” is important, but just typing it in capital letters redundantly does not change physics, wounding ballistics, or my patterning board. The most common thing available with “UNMATCHED THUMPING POWER” is often just the delirious chest-thumping created by apparently intoxicated marketing departments.

I've never accused any ammunition manufacturer of getting things right 100% of the time, not Federal, not Fiocchi, not Kent, not Remington, not Winchester. So far, no one has let me down. If all manufacturers could be counted on to completely and accurately describe their products, warts and all, there wouldn't be any point of having gunwriters. Thanks to letters such as yours, I can take comfort knowing that I'll not be out of work anytime soon.

Since it was the “The No Tox Shotshell Problem” article that you are referring to, you seem to have misread it. There has not been an approved for waterfowl shot material on the market that is safe for older barrels, offers lead-like performance, is available in bulk for handloading, and can be handloaded using “for lead” shot charge bars, “for lead” wads, using both readily available propellants and components. A no-tox shot material that the hunting enthusiast can use with many of his favorite Green Dot, Herco, or Unique recipes and go duck hunting, goose hunting, or perhaps pheasant hunting where dictated by regulations. Hevi-Shot has never provided any solution to this problem and this is the problem that Nice Shot seeks to solve.

--Randy Wakeman

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 Post subject: Re: Hevi-shot sucks
PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2020 6:31 pm 
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There is a difference between weight & mass/density. Weight is dependent on gravity. Mass is always the same but unless you are duck hunting on the moon or Mars perhaps, it is pretty irrelevant. Hevi Shots argument is a play on words to make you think it matters here on mother earth, where it essentially doesn't. Tungsten is expensive & it's all about money but all we want to know as duck & goose hunters is what we are buying. A pound of feathers is as heavy as a pound of lead but it doesn't have very good ballistic characteristics nor is it nearly as dense as lead. I want to know the density of the shot I am buying & I don't want to hear any propaganda. I never bought a loaded Hevi Shot shell but I have shot plenty of it that I loaded myself with great results but their advertising tactics are a turn off!


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 Post subject: Re: Hevi-shot sucks
PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2020 8:32 pm 
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HEVI-Shot Scott wrote:
Hello! My name is Scott Turner, I am the Director of Sales and Marketing for HEVI-Shot. I know that this is a very old thread, but we are still getting emails regarding it, which is why I am responding.

I would like to give you some history regarding the changes of HEVI-Shot and hope you will simply delete this thread.

During 2008, in response to the increase of tungsten (5 times!) HEVI-Shot duck was reduced to 9.6g/cc and keep the HEVI-Shot Goose loads at 12g/cc.


Scott, this may well be long before your time, but that isn't what Hevi-Shot has claimed at all.

Quote:
Our consumers, however, made it clear they preferred the 12g/cc pellets and Hevi Shot Duck and Goose pellets been 12g/cc since 2008. (from Sean @ Hevi-Shot.)


The stories (lies?) from Hevi-Shot have been spewed with breathtaking consistency for many years. The above is just one example. Hevi-Shot has done their best to conceal what consumers actually get. The last catalog on your website continues the trend. Just how would Joe Hunter know what the density of any of your stuff is supposed to be?

Image

Just where can anyone get the densities from your 2019 catalog page above? You are also claiming that a "thicker base wad increases the reliability of semi-automatic shotguns." Where did you come up with that one? :roll:

Hevi-Shot also decided to shaft on all the choke manufacturers that invested a great deal of time and money designing and testing choke profiles for the best results from Hevi-Shot. Hevi-Shot got greedy, deciding to sell their own choke tubes.

Quite unsurprisingly, that was it . . . the kiss of death. No major choke manufacturer today bothers testing Hevi-Shot or promoting it, as Hevi-Shot decided to become their direct competitor, instead of their partners. In this case, Hevi-Shot traveled extremely far... just to miss.

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 Post subject: Re: Hevi-shot sucks
PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2020 8:59 pm 
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Ha!Ha! I enjoyed reading that old thread, Randy. Maybe we need to come up with a metric for "thumping power" and stamp that on the shell boxes so that we have a common metric to compare shells. ;-)

As for me, I'm headed out to the range to go thump some clays . . .


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 Post subject: Re: Hevi-shot sucks
PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2020 9:03 pm 
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Image

Can anyone guess why my Hevi-Shot Classic Doubles loads patterned so tragically poorly? :shock:

The four dollar a shot Hevi-Shot "Classic Doubles" shells (shown above) were some of the most pathetically poor patterning loads I've ever tested. If you cut open some shells like I did, the reason they stink it up so bad isn't hard to figure out. The "Classic Doubles" junk is no denser than bismuth, featuring not only truly abysmal patterns, but a ridiculous price as well.

They had significant "wallet thumping power," but little else.

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Last edited by RandyWakeman on Mon Mar 02, 2020 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Hevi-shot sucks
PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2020 9:07 pm 
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On what grounds would this thread be deleted? It was all true. And those were good, long time members of SGW, except for that EM shill that was always posting their sales.

Why an EM rep would bump this instead of "letting sleeping dogs lie"? Well, that is a question for a shrink.

But, since it is bumped...I met a guy out hunting one day years back. He talked up all the ducks his dog retrieved already that early season (70+, two weeks)...all from that same spot on public land. I believed him, since there seemed to be no ducks left there, even though years before I used to have good hunts there when I had the time to make that long drive. I asked him what he shot, and he said hevi-shot. I said, oh, well that's some expensive meat, I hope that dog has a soft mouth. His buddy rolled his eyes, and the guy says, well, I guess it is, but I don't pay for it. My (son, son in law, something) works for the company, so he gets it for free.

I decided then and there never to buy any EnvironMetal products again. I don't believe I have ever posted that story, so I thank you for giving me this opportunity!

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 Post subject: Re: Hevi-shot sucks
PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2020 9:09 pm 
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I know it`s not really the subject of this thread but I sure like their Hevi-13 turkey loads.

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 Post subject: Re: re: Hevi-shot sucks
PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2020 9:17 pm 
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Researcher wrote:
100% agreement. They built a reputation based on 12 g/cc performance, then suddenly dropped the density down 20% to save money on raw materials, but didn't tell anyone.

Well, I know now. In the back of the Christmas issue of the Macks Prairie Wings catalog there is an advertisement for a new Environmetal offering called Hevi-Shot Classic Doubles. This time they've come clean about the density, "26% denser than steel but soft like lead," says the ad. Three lines above that admission, they proclaim this selling point about the new shot: "Get the same superior performance as Hevi-Shot Duck!"


It is hard to make this up-- but no one needs to, as it is all quite true.



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