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 Post subject: Re: Hevi-shot sucks
PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2020 9:30 pm 
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Hey Tide,
Late one spring gobbler season, maybe ten years back, I bit down on a piece of approx #9 hevi shot that was in a jake. I was not happy, and it did some damage to my mouth. This bird was killed with regular old lead, but apparently someone had peppered it at some point that season with a super duper long range turkey load containing hevi shot. The hevi comes in a coarse mix of sizes and shapes, at least it did. Turns out there were a bunch more pellets in there, very small and hard to find, and that meat was basically wasted.

I am not a fan of people shooting turkeys with hard shot for this reason. I like the idea of those winchester epoxied lead loads a lot more. Frankly I don't know why anyone would willingly use shot harder than lead on anything they intend to eat. I used Rem HD #6 on ducks and loved it, but that stuff blew right through ducks, and it was all the same uniform size with same penetration.

I had a similar accident happen while eating a duck breast when I bit down on a #2 steel. That mallard was killed with Kent #5 TM, and I was unprepared for hard shot in the meat.



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 Post subject: Re: Hevi-shot sucks
PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2020 10:16 pm 
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FullandFuller wrote:
Hey Tide,
Late one spring gobbler season, maybe ten years back, I bit down on a piece of approx #9 hevi shot that was in a jake. I was not happy, and it did some damage to my mouth. This bird was killed with regular old lead, but apparently someone had peppered it at some point that season with a super duper long range turkey load containing hevi shot. The hevi comes in a coarse mix of sizes and shapes, at least it did. Turns out there were a bunch more pellets in there, very small and hard to find, and that meat was basically wasted.

I am not a fan of people shooting turkeys with hard shot for this reason. I like the idea of those winchester epoxied lead loads a lot more. Frankly I don't know why anyone would willingly use shot harder than lead on anything they intend to eat. I used Rem HD #6 on ducks and loved it, but that stuff blew right through ducks, and it was all the same uniform size with same penetration.

I had a similar accident happen while eating a duck breast when I bit down on a #2 steel. That mallard was killed with Kent #5 TM, and I was unprepared for hard shot in the meat.


Hey F&F. Ouch!! If I understand correctly, your Jake sounds like it was a cripple that you or someone killed (?). Sounds to me like that bird may have been shot at long range by some doofuss shooting TSS. Hevi-13, the turkey load to which I was referring, is an alloy composed of yes, some tungsten, but also iron and nickel. I don’t think Hevi-13 comes in #9 shot size. The shells I use are 3”, 2 oz.#6 . I limit shots to 40 yards and in. That load patterns great through a .660 Jellyhead in my 870 Super Mag.

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 Post subject: Re: Hevi-shot sucks
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 1:01 am 
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HEVI-Shot Scott wrote:
Hello! My name is Scott Turner, I am the Director of Sales and Marketing for HEVI-Shot. I know that this is a very old thread, but we are still getting emails regarding it, which is why I am responding.


"Responding" to a long dormant thread, over 12 years later, is no response at all. It is setting yourself on fire for no reason. Just like fishing lures that are designed to hook more fisherman than fish, Hevi-Shot's long and loudly deceptive marketing practices have tried the same thing. Bait and switch rightfully has earned Hevi-Shot great disdain. Your website is designed by "Fish Marketing" . . . little could be more appropriate. Where Hevi-Shot could have educated, the choice was made to obfuscate instead.

Still the nonsense persists: https://www.hevishot.com/about-us/the-hevi-shot-story/ . "Hunters know that HEVI-Shot® products will give them more lethal pellets on target, at higher energies, than other shotshells. Period." Hunters don't "know" that, nor should they . . . as it isn't true. Nobody knows this.

It is a delusional statement. Hevi-Shot, a leader long ago (far longer ago than the inception of this thread) is now a over-hyped, second-rate product line, compared to many others: Federal, Winchester, Apex, Boss, and others that are far, far more honest about high-density shot materials.

It continues: "We made the very first Heavier Than Lead® pellets. We pioneered irregular pellet shapes, which boost lethality and reduce drag."

The best form factor for a pellet is a perfect sphere, yet the scatterbrained, whopper-doodle alternative bizzaro-facts of Hevi-Shot claim that gravel has less drag than spherical pellets. The 'pioneering' of irregular pellets was long before Hevi-Shot existed, with soft, low-antimony lead. Manufacturers have been trying to keep pellets round ever since, by using higher antimony, one-piece shot cups, and buffering . . . all to reduce deformation of shot.

Yet, Hevi-Shot still attempts to celebrate it.

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 Post subject: Re: Hevi-shot sucks
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 9:54 am 
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Regardless of Environmetal, Inc.'s deceptive marketing and gimmicky loads, there's no question that real 12 g/cc Hevi-Shot is very effective, albeit expensive, stuff. It's too costly for me to shoot for waterfowl, but I'd surely try Hevi-13 for turkey hunting.


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 Post subject: Re: Hevi-shot sucks
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 10:13 am 
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lossking wrote:
Regardless of Environmetal, Inc.'s deceptive marketing and gimmicky loads, there's no question that real 12 g/cc Hevi-Shot is very effective, albeit expensive, stuff. It's too costly for me to shoot for waterfowl, but I'd surely try Hevi-13 for turkey hunting.




JMHO mind, but it and Winchester Longbeard XR are the two best 12 gauge turkey loads on the market. That`s of course working from the position that TSS is overkill for 12`s. Sub gauge, I wouldn`t use anything but TSS.

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 Post subject: Re: Hevi-shot sucks
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 10:15 am 
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lossking wrote:
Regardless of Environmetal, Inc.'s deceptive marketing and gimmicky loads, there's no question that real 12 g/cc Hevi-Shot is very effective, albeit expensive, stuff. It's too costly for me to shoot for waterfowl, but I'd surely try Hevi-13 for turkey hunting.


Well, "effective" is a very low bar, for buffered lead is 100% effective, particularly the Winchester Longbeard lead loads.

The Federal Heavyweight 15g/cc is far better than Hevi-12, and the Boss loads are far better: https://bossshotshells.com/tom-tungsten/ . The TSS loads (Apex, Boss #9, Federal, Remimgton TSS (coming soon) and many others all put Hevi-13 to shame by no small margin.

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 Post subject: Re: Hevi-shot sucks
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 10:35 am 
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Well, in the final analysis, LOTS of things will kill a turkey 40 yards and in ( my personal limit ). For MY 12 gauge turkey gun and chokes, 2oz. of #6 Hevi-13 gives me the best patterns. XR was certainly not far behind and I wouldn`t hesitate to shoot them. I have no need nor desire to pay what you pay for a 12 gauge TSS load for a 40 yard and in shot. I don`t think the turkeys will be any less dead!

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 Post subject: Re: Hevi-shot sucks
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 10:36 am 
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Tidefanatic wrote:
For MY 12 gauge turkey gun and chokes, 2oz. of #6 Hevi-13 gives me the best patterns.


Compared to what? Even the 'old' (last year) 1-3/4 oz. Boss load (low recoil, comparatively), does this:


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 Post subject: Re: Hevi-shot sucks
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 12:08 pm 
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Very impressive. When and if my supply of discontinued Winchester Hi-Density Xtended Range runs out, I'll try some of the other heavier-than-lead choices. 12 g/cc Hevi-13 #6 would probably be my first choice, followed by 15 g/cc Boss Tom #7.


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 Post subject: Re: Hevi-shot sucks
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 12:59 pm 
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Yes, the real Hevi Shot 12g/cc is good stuff. Few people can consistently hit ducks & geese as far as it is lethal. As for turkeys, my 10 ga. will kill them as far as I want to shoot at one with lead. The only reason I shoot tungsten at waterfowl is lead is illegal & I don't want to shoot steel. Bismuth also works for me. From what I have heard & been told, a good turkey caller can get them in range of a 20 ga. quite often. Speaking of Hi Density, I've got some Federal Premium High Density 10 ga. #2's I have had for a long time. They are some variety of tungsten non toxic product but I can't remember exactly what. Does anybody remember/ know anything about them?


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 Post subject: Re: Hevi-shot sucks
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 2:34 pm 
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If the box is labeled "Federal Premium Tungsten Shotshells", the shot is a tungsten iron alloy that Federal marketed briefly as "94% as dense as lead". They came in a box of 10 shells, and a friend of mine bought a few boxes of 2¾" 12 gauge loaded with 1 oz. of #2 shot for goose hunting. Understandably, they sucked and he gave the last box containing 4 rounds to me. I still have them. In a 3½" 10 gauge shell with a larger payload they might be OK.


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 Post subject: Re: Hevi-shot sucks
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 3:50 pm 
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Lossking, Thank you! I believe that is what they are. I bought them at a Cabela's on the way to a hunting trip in N.D. years back but never shot any. 1oz. of #2 must produce pretty sparse patterns. These are 1 5/8 oz. loads. Pop killed a lot of geese with 1.5 oz. lead #2's (buffered Win. loads) back when you could still shoot lead over land. These should work fine! I have almost a full box of 25.


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 Post subject: Re: Hevi-shot sucks
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 4:03 pm 
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geo,
I seem to recall the Fed HD (High Density) was the cheaper replacement for the HW (Heavyweight). The heavyweight was 15 g/cc. The HD was cheapened and dropped below lead density. I shot a bunch of HW bought at clearance prices but passed on the HD.

The problem I saw with the HW was the shot sizes were too big for the payload, and they had too much velocity. #6 HW was borderline too heavy a pellet for ducks since the payload was only 1-1/4 oz and the patterns were never filled out. My kill ratio were much higher with #6 Rem HD in my auto, and #5 Kent TM through my O/U than with the Fed HW #6 1-1/4 oz 1450fps. The #4 HW were a pretty good canada load though. I still have some of them I pull out at times. The HW are a coppery color pellet.

Tide,
I don't believe TSS was on the market at that time, other than maybe for handloading. These were the misshapen little hevi pellets. A #6 hevishot will have a mix of sizes down to about #9. I'm sure that bird was popped at way out of range...what can I say, I wish that hunter had killed it clean and/or bit his own pellet instead of me.

Lots of times I find pellets in pheasants that aren't my size. It happens, it's part of hunting, birds gets away. But biting a piece of lead is not a big deal, certainly not like hitting steel or hard tungsten. The steel is usually pretty big, but the tungsten pellets can go unnoticed.

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 Post subject: Re: Hevi-shot sucks
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 5:47 pm 
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FullandFuller wrote:
geo,
I seem to recall the Fed HD (High Density) was the cheaper replacement for the HW (Heavyweight). The heavyweight was 15 g/cc. The HD was cheapened and dropped below lead density. I shot a bunch of HW bought at clearance prices but passed on the HD.

The problem I saw with the HW was the shot sizes were too big for the payload, and they had too much velocity. #6 HW was borderline too heavy a pellet for ducks since the payload was only 1-1/4 oz and the patterns were never filled out. My kill ratio were much higher with #6 Rem HD in my auto, and #5 Kent TM through my O/U than with the Fed HW #6 1-1/4 oz 1450fps. The #4 HW were a pretty good canada load though. I still have some of them I pull out at times. The HW are a coppery color pellet.

Tide,
I don't believe TSS was on the market at that time, other than maybe for handloading. These were the misshapen little hevi pellets. A #6 hevishot will have a mix of sizes down to about #9. I'm sure that bird was popped at way out of range...what can I say, I wish that hunter had killed it clean and/or bit his own pellet instead of me.

Lots of times I find pellets in pheasants that aren't my size. It happens, it's part of hunting, birds gets away. But biting a piece of lead is not a big deal, certainly not like hitting steel or hard tungsten. The steel is usually pretty big, but the tungsten pellets can go unnoticed.


Sure makes one think twice about taking a bite of lots of types of game birds without a close examination first! :lol: I`ll bet dentists are tungsten`s biggest fans!

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 Post subject: Re: Hevi-shot sucks
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 6:35 pm 
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geo, this is the stuff I was talking about. Is that what you have?


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 Post subject: Re: Hevi-shot sucks
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 8:20 pm 
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I no longer have the box they came in but I think that is it. The individual shells are marked "FEDERAL PREMIUM HIGH DENSITY" & they do have magnetic attraction. Not a big deal as I only have 20 or so of them. Just wondering exactly what they are. Yes, I believe they were 10 per box. As for the shot sizes being too big, I agree. Duck shells in the old days were 6's, 5's & 4's & geese were often hunted with 4's. I have often wondered why they think we need 2's in a heavier than lead pellet to kill a duck? It must be the steel shot influence. Also, one of the advantages of heavier than lead & near lead density pellets is they don't need hyper velocity to be lethal! My favorite duck load for longer range shooting has been 1 1/4 oz. of Hevi shot #5's at about 1200 fps. using Hodgdons data. I also liked #5 Kent ITM & my #5 bismuth reloads.


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 Post subject: Re: Hevi-shot sucks
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2020 10:41 am 
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I've used those and I'm pretty sure that those barely adequate hevi-Classic Doubles were introduced after Winchester Bismuth expired at a time when bismuth shot was generally unavailable. Today's availability of less expensive bismuth is probably why Nice Shot is doing poorly too.

I used to hand load #6 12g/cc hevi-shot for ducks but it became too expensive. Risky for barrels too. I found last season that nowadays bismuth is half the cost of hevi-shot. Bismuth is at about twice the cost of a box of steel shells.

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 Post subject: Re: Hevi-shot sucks
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2020 10:51 am 
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RandyWakeman wrote:
HEVI-Shot Scott wrote:
Hello! My name is Scott Turner, I am the Director of Sales and Marketing for HEVI-Shot. I know that this is a very old thread, but we are still getting emails regarding it, which is why I am responding.

I would like to give you some history regarding the changes of HEVI-Shot and hope you will simply delete this thread.

During 2008, in response to the increase of tungsten (5 times!) HEVI-Shot duck was reduced to 9.6g/cc and keep the HEVI-Shot Goose loads at 12g/cc.


Scott, this may well be long before your time, but that isn't what Hevi-Shot has claimed at all.

Quote:
Our consumers, however, made it clear they preferred the 12g/cc pellets and Hevi Shot Duck and Goose pellets been 12g/cc since 2008. (from Sean @ Hevi-Shot.)


The stories (lies?) from Hevi-Shot have been spewed with breathtaking consistency for many years. The above is just one example. Hevi-Shot has done their best to conceal what consumers actually get. The last catalog on your website continues the trend. Just how would Joe Hunter know what the density of any of your stuff is supposed to be?

Image

Just where can anyone get the densities from your 2019 catalog page above? You are also claiming that a "thicker base wad increases the reliability of semi-automatic shotguns." Where did you come up with that one? :roll:

Hevi-Shot also decided to shaft on all the choke manufacturers that invested a great deal of time and money designing and testing choke profiles for the best results from Hevi-Shot. Hevi-Shot got greedy, deciding to sell their own choke tubes.

Quite unsurprisingly, that was it . . . the kiss of death. No major choke manufacturer today bothers testing Hevi-Shot or promoting it, as Hevi-Shot decided to become their direct competitor, instead of their partners. In this case, Hevi-Shot traveled extremely far... just to miss.


It took 12 long years to 'respond' to the original thread, HEVI-Shot Scott. How long will it take to respond now, to the thread you decided to bring back to life?

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 Post subject: Re: Hevi-shot sucks
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2020 3:11 pm 
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Some people called Hevi Shot, Ugly Shot. It works but unless I get a deal, it's going to be bismuth for me. I probably won't live long enough to shoot up my stockpile of HS, ITM, bismuth & nice shot. Not at the rate I've been shooting at ducks & geese lately. Time for another waterfowl Safari (to ND, not Africa). The last batch of HS (internet sale, not fm HS) was supposed to be 10 lbs but I received just shy of 20 lbs. I don't trust any of them, although most have been honest. It is heavier than lead by volume. Bismuth has been very effective for me.


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 Post subject: Re: Hevi-shot sucks
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2020 4:18 pm 
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geo, re those shells you have, they're different than mine which are marked "Federal Premium Tungsten" on the hull with a nice picture of a Canada Goose on each one. Nowhere does "High Density" appear on the hull. Sounds like your shells contain better, denser shot.




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