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 Post subject: Re: Do you remember shooting geese with lead?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:18 am 
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xsshooter wrote:
I have a fair amount of #2, BB, BBB and even T lead shot.

Any recommendations on what those can be used for now?

Coyote




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 Post subject: Re: Do you remember shooting geese with lead?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:25 pm 
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Gentlemen,

I can remember shooting Wood Ducks here in Pa with lead #4's, still have couple unused boxes after all these years. We use to walk along the streams and some ponds jump shooting Wood Ducks and Grouse when the seasons over lapped.

We did a real live test on the Mallard Ducks that lived around the ponds on my Grandfathers Dairy Farm. Leaving 6 lead shot in each of our feeding containers where the Ducks often came to eat. Not one of those lead shot was ever eaten by a wild Mallard Duck, we counted the shot every morning when refilling the feed stations. We actually showed this to a Pa Game Warden, he told us we should not be putting feed out for the wild Mallard Ducks on our farm. He would not report the actual test finding that we made. The real test findings, did not fit with the political agenda.

Never saw a wild duck yet that would eat lead shot, they actually sold this fraud to unsuspecting people and they really believed it. It was one of the main reasons for the institution of the no lead laws. Now some other things may have been true about lead contamination, however the Ducks eating the lead shot, I have never seen, and we proved that wild Mallard Ducks do not eat it even when it was mixed with other feed left specifically for them.

I can not say the lead laws are all a fraud, however this part of it was, we ran the test for almost an entire year. Zero Lead shot were eaten by the Mallard Ducks.

Good God that was along time ago.

Pine Creek/Dave
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 Post subject: Re: Do you remember shooting geese with lead?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:31 pm 
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Good post Dave. I'm certain steel shot requirements are pointless where I hunt.


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 Post subject: Re: Do you remember shooting geese with lead?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:29 pm 
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oyeme wrote:
I shot lead at geese and have seen some really impressive shooting by a friend with a Model 21 Duck Gun and Winchester Western 3 inch copper plated and buffered BBs. Laser verified distances longer than anyone would believe; nevertheless repeatedly done because of his skill and practice at pass shooting Canadians with that combination.

duckgoosehunt said: "I prefer to shoot steel, and would never shoot lead for waterfowl, even if it were made legal again. My biggest reason is that felt recoil is a lot LESS with steel shot than what it is with lead, and I am one who actually enjoys reloading my own steel shot loads."

I am not here to cause a war, but I am truly befuddled by how a change from lead to steel would cause less "felt" recoil unless there was a change in one of the key variables that contribute to recoil, i.e. velocity, or shot charge weight. I can only guess that since you said you use 7/8 oz steel that must be the reason you get less "felt" recoil from steel.

However, if you shot 7/8 oz of lead at the same velocity wouldn't the "felt" recoil be the same?


What’s heavier 7/8 oz Lead or 7/8 oz of steel

Sarcasm on


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 Post subject: Re: Do you remember shooting geese with lead?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:17 am 
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I fondly remember the lead shot days. For honks we most often used 1-1/2oz of lead 2's out of our 12's, and my Dad would sometimes break out his long-barreled Spanish double 10 ga choked XF and throw 2-1/8oz of lead BB's while pass-shooting. Steel shot can never be an equal ballistic substitute.

There have been several things stated on this thread that I feel compelled to comment on. First, any bird hit in the cranium at any reasonable range will die. Hits in the jaw or bill will often knock a bird out cold - only to regain consciousness quickly thereafter - but hits to the braincase are virtually always instantly lethal. If your shot does not have enough penetration to get through the comparatively thin skull of a goose, you are shooting at birds WAY beyond the capability of your load.

I'm not a fan of 3-1/2" loads, as most hunters do not take the time to pattern their gun/choke/load combination sufficiently to be able to harness the extra shot. Theoretically it should be possible to increase your range a bit by using larger shot sizes, but it's difficult to achieve in practice and virtually no one takes the time to do it. I personally don't believe the extra expense and recoil is worth it.

That being said, going to the other extreme and using 7/8oz loads at 1700fps is also fraught with problems. Ultra-high velocities and low pellet counts often lead to lousy patterns. With some work at the pattern board good patterns can be achieved, but the average hunter won't do this, and thus is going to be better off with a typical 1-1/4oz load at 1400-1450fps. The slower load is much more likely to throw a decent pattern with whatever modified choke tube is currently rusted into the end of their barrels.

The real issue is education. I wish more hunters understood the basics of effective shotgun patterns for game. You have to have sufficient pellets in the pattern to ensure a vital spot is hit, and enough penetration to ensure the pellets can actually disrupt whatever vital is actually hit. Simply put, steel #2 shot fired at 1400fps will penetrate to the vitals of a mallard at 40 yards from just about any orientation. If you adjust your choke so that at least 100 pellets are held in a 30" circle at 40 yards, you'll have a pretty good all-around duck load. For large geese, steel #1 or BB is necessary for adequate penetration through the torso at 40 yards, but you only need about 60 well-spaced hits in 30" to ensure vital hits. Lastly, if you set your gun up this way, you need to limit your shots to this range. If more hunters would follow these simple steps, there would be a lot fewer cripples in the field.

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 Post subject: Re: Do you remember shooting geese with lead?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:59 am 
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"I can not say the lead laws are all a fraud, however this part of it was, we ran the test for almost an entire year. Zero Lead shot were eaten by the Mallard Ducks."

IMO it was totally a bogus, agenda driven report. The lead poisoning hazards in waterfowl reports go back to the 1890s but that initial report did not describe how it was occurring other than by the birds being shot. The Feds have tried to even ban lead sinkers from fishing because they claim waterfowl might ingest it.

I think the real impetus for banning lead was the Clean Air Act in 1970 which made lead in the environment public enemy #1. The fact that lead occurs naturally (it is after all mined) is not even a factor to be considered.

I am not a conspiracy advocate, but I now wonder if the ammo makers had any vested interest in these "studies" especially when one sees how much prices of non-toxics have become. Probably not, but it sure has driven the price of duck hunting loads up dramatically and don't think it has done anything to help duck numbers.


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 Post subject: Re: Do you remember shooting geese with lead?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:43 am 
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oyeme wrote:
I am not a conspiracy advocate, but I now wonder if the ammo makers had any vested interest in these "studies" especially when one sees how much prices of non-toxics have become. Probably not, but it sure has driven the price of duck hunting loads up dramatically and don't think it has done anything to help duck numbers.


To the contrary, Olin-Winchester sued the Feds over it. Ammo sales are dropping right now, with no end in sight.

Hunter numbers continue in steep decline as well,.







Quote:
March 15, 2006, 11:52PM
Studies suggest lead poisoning is killing millions of doves


By SHANNON TOMPKINS
Copyright 2006 Houston Chronicle

Mounting evidence that ingestion of lead pellets poses an as-yet-unquantified detrimental effect on dove populations has wildlife managers across the country beginning to look seriously at the issue.

Already, the federal government and some states have banned lead shot for all wingshooting, including hunting for doves and other upland birds, on some government-controlled areas such as federal refuges, state wildlife management areas and government-leased hunting tracts.

No sweeping rule mandating a switch to non-toxic shot for dove hunting has been proposed by either federal or state wildlife agencies. And any such rule at the federal level could take years to impose.

But the subject is gaining scrutiny.

Recently, the International Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies alerted its members to new research on the issue of lead poisoning of doves and raised the question of whether non-toxic shot should be required for hunting doves.

At a Monday meeting in Austin of the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department's Game Bird Advisory Board, Jay Roberson of TPWD's wildlife division offered the citizen advisory group an overview of the issue and some of the research triggering the topic's increasing significance among wildlife managers.

Any move to require non-toxic shot for dove hunting would have a huge impact on wingshooters across the nation and, in particular, Texas.

Doves are the most popular and populous game bird in the nation. An estimated 1.2-1.6 million wingshooters hunt doves in the United States, with 300,000 or so in Texas, the most of any state.

A switch from using shotshells loaded with lead pellets, traditional shot material for doves and other upland game birds, to those packed with non-toxic pellets would precipitate a near total upheaval of ammunition manufacturing and cost hunters a lot more money.

Dove hunters are shotshell manufacturers' biggest customers. Dove hunters purchase almost 75 percent of the shotshells sold in the US, according to Tom Roster, leading researcher and instructor for the Cooperative North American Shotgunning Education Program.

Almost all of those "dove" loads are filled with lead shot.

Currently, a 25-shell box of No. 7 1/2 lead shot "dove loads" costs $3-$5.

A 25-shell box of similar shotshells loaded with small (No. 7) "steel" shot costs $8-$12. Shotshells loaded with No. 7 1/2 shot in one of the more exotic and ballistically superior non-toxic materials such as Hevi-Shot cost as much as $2-$2.50 per shell.

Wildlife scientists have known for decades that birds ingesting spent lead shot suffer from the metal's toxic effects.

Birds ingest the small lead pellets, which look much like the small pieces of sand and gravel they swallow to use in digestion. This hard "grit" is used in a bird's muscular gizzard to crush and break down seeds and other forage.

The lead pellets are ground down, and lead is absorbed into the bird's bloodstream, where its toxicity can kill a bird quickly through acute toxicosis or, at lower levels, decrease a bird's immune system, making it susceptible to secondary illnesses and delayed mortality.

Studies involving waterfowl indicated an estimated 4 percent of the continent's ducks and geese died each year from the effects of lead pellets they ingested as grit.

Federal regulations beginning a phase-out of lead shot for waterfowl hunting were imposed in the 1970s. A nationwide ban on using lead shot when hunting ducks and geese took effect in 1991.

While considerable continent-wide research documented the chronic and persistent problem of lead poisoning in waterfowl, comparably little has focused on the effects of lead shot ingested by doves.

But that scattered research has shown doves do ingest spent lead shot and suffer its toxic effects.

A 1982-83 study involving about 3,000 hunter-harvested mourning and white-winged doves taken on wildlife management areas in South Texas indicated about 2 percent of those doves had lead shot in their gizzards.

Studies in other states suggest overall lead shot ingestion rates by doves are as low as 0.2 percent to as high as 6.4 percent. But in some specific areas, as many as 20 percent of doves were found to have ingested lead shot.

Some doves were found to have ingested as many as two dozen lead pellets.

Plenty of spent lead shot is out there for the birds to find. Most dove hunting occurs over and around feeding fields or, in Texas and other Southwestern states, water holes — just the places where doves pick up grit. And the same fields and water holes tend to be hunted year after year.

How much lead is being spewed onto their fields?

A lot.


Telling numbers
If each of Texas' 300,000 dove hunters were to fire only 16 shots a season (far below the real average), that's about a pound of lead per dove hunter, or 150 tons of lead each year. Actual amount of lead fired dove hunting is several times that amount.


Recent studies conducted by the Missouri Department of Conservation, one of the nation's most-respected state wildlife agencies, indicate a dove ingesting spent lead shot is almost certain of suffering its toxic effects.

To test the acute toxicity of lead on doves, the Missouri study used 180 mourning
doves divided into seven
groups during three separate trials.

One group was fed no lead pellets. The others were fed a one-time dose of 2, 4, 8, 12, 18 or 24 lead No. 7 1/2 pellets from commercially available shotshells. The birds were monitored for 21 days.

By the end of the 21-day period, 104 of the treated doves had died, with 53 surviving.

All 22 doves that had not ingested lead shot survived the study.

The more lead pellets the doves ingested, the more likely and the quicker they were to die, the study showed. But even doves that ingested only two pellets were quickly impacted — almost half died by the end of the 21-day study. And only 22 percent of the doves that ingested 5-8 pellets were alive after three weeks.

Research in other states has indicated elevated lead levels in the blood of 2-11 percent of doves, pointing to those birds having at least some exposure to lead pellets.


Research to continue
Some researchers believe data indicate lead-caused mortality could be as widespread in doves as it was in waterfowl before the lead shot ban. If so, that would mean lead poisoning annually claims about 16 million doves.


The annual legal dove harvest in the U.S. is estimated to be 19-21 million birds.

Texas wildlife managers are looking at the lead/dove issue and hoping to increase their research in that area.

"One of the things we're looking for is research that will give us some real-world insight into the scope and depth of the problem — if it is a problem," Vernon Bevill, director of TPWD's small game and habitat assessment programs, told the Game Bird Advisory Board. "We don't need to get to a decision on this until we have a lot more information."

But, he added, "It's certainly an issue that deserves our interest."

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 Post subject: Re: Do you remember shooting geese with lead?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:24 am 
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Patently Obvious wrote:
Yes and I disagree on the need for steel for layout blind field hunting geese. In N.D. I would often go back to the truck after early goose hunting and switch to lead shells and walk right back out to the same field and hunt the edges and cattail sloughs for the pheasants I saw while goose hunting. Problem is the enviros will soon ban lead for pheasants too if they get there way.


The problem isn't with the many studies that show that waterfowl ingests lead and that ingested lead is toxic: those are quite true and scientifically proven.

The real problem is the absurd premise that anyone really cares about saving birds: that is the grand lie.

Windows and windmills kill untold millions of birds (and bats). If someone really wants more game, they need more habitat. Less tile, less drainage, less roads, airports, less automobiles.

Cats kill Billions of birds and so do windmills. Unlike hunting, it is a year round event and those birds are not used for food. Windmills, perhaps 600,000 birds a year . . . but no accurate counts exist.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nat ... y/1873871/

Quote:
Cats kill up to 3.7B birds annually
Chuck Raasch, USA TODAY Published 10:59 a.m. ET Jan. 29, 2013 | Updated 1:10 a.m. ET Jan. 30, 2013
New study shows that feline threat to birds is greater than previously thought.


Well over 3 billion birds a year die to Fluffy. Please don't insult me by suggesting the government cares about birds.

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 Post subject: Re: Do you remember shooting geese with lead?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:39 am 
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Randy,

Thanks for the correction on the ammo makers and non toxic waterfowl loads being imposed.

"No sweeping rule mandating a switch to non-toxic shot for dove hunting has been proposed by either federal or state wildlife agencies. And any such rule at the federal level could take years to impose.

But the subject is gaining scrutiny."


Also, thanks for the feelings of potential impending doom if restrictions on lead use for doves happen per that article. Sheesh!


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 Post subject: Re: Do you remember shooting geese with lead?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:23 am 
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the federal court case that forced the FWS to institute the nationwide ban on lead shot for waterfowl and coot hunting was because eagles were dying from ingesting lead shot while eating birds shot with lead shot.

I'm sure someone has the particulars on that court case that they can post.


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 Post subject: Re: Do you remember shooting geese with lead?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:00 am 
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I think it was the California Condor that figured into the mix, somehow. But, I can't recall the details

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 Post subject: Re: Do you remember shooting geese with lead?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:13 am 
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Joe Hunter wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the federal court case that forced the FWS to institute the nationwide ban on lead shot for waterfowl and coot hunting was because eagles were dying from ingesting lead shot while eating birds shot with lead shot.

I'm sure someone has the particulars on that court case that they can post.


Nothing forced anything. Several groups lobby for it: https://www.audubon.org/news/new-federa ... ternatives

https://blog.humanesociety.org/2017/03/ ... l-act.html

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 Post subject: Re: Do you remember shooting geese with lead?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:25 am 
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Several groups just want birds, feral hogs, and deer completely dead-- all of them.

That includes many farmers (crop depredation) and insurance companies (deer / vehicle collisions). To some, it isn't about saving anything . . . it is about complete eradication.

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 Post subject: Re: Do you remember shooting geese with lead?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:03 pm 
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oyeme wrote:
Also, thanks for the feelings of potential impending doom if restrictions on lead use for doves happen per that article. Sheesh!


It is a case of selective outrage. How much lead did the Allies drop on Germany? Who is going to clean it up?

The U.S.-wide ban on hunting waterfowl with lead was instituted in 1991 after "scientists estimated that 2 million waterfowl a year were dying from eating lead shot while scooping up food from the bottoms of lakes and streams or ingesting pebbles to grind food in their gizzards."

Cats kill 3.7 billion birds a year. Are cats going to be banned?

Another take on lead is https://www.thebalancesmb.com/the-amazi ... ng-2877926

More than 50 percent of lead used in the production of new lead products around the world is sourced from recycled lead. According to one estimate, there will be approximately 37 million start-stop lead batteries in micro-hybrid cars by 2020.

What about plastic? https://www.onegreenplanet.org/environm ... et-and-us/

The world is choking to death from plastic. Yet, it remains a case of whose ox is being gored. The chances of a cat ban and a plastic ban are right at zero. What about a lead battery ban? We use more batteries all the time.

And then there is oil. https://www.marineinsight.com/environme ... ime-world/

The world’s largest oil spill was not an accident. It was the result of a war. As a result, around 240 million gallons of oil are believed to have been discharged into the Persian Gulf.

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 Post subject: Re: Do you remember shooting geese with lead?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:43 pm 
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Our standard hunting loads before the lead ban were 1 1/4 ounce reloads in AA hulls - #5 or #4 for Ducks and #2 or BB for Geese, though there were fewer Geese around than today on the Canadian prairie.
The crucial step to reduce wounding loss has always been to let them get close. Sky busting leads to unrecovered birds.


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 Post subject: Re: Do you remember shooting geese with lead?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:49 pm 
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Gentlemen,

As I said before we did our own test with the large amount of Mallard Ducks we had on my Grandfathers Dairy farm, not one Mallard Duck ever ate any of the lead shot placed in the feeding stations. The test continued for an entire year, the lead shot count always remain the same in the feeding stations, the Mallard Ducks were wild. Our scientific evidence and what was reported to the Government did not match up. Somebody may have cooked the books for their own no lead agenda.

Pine Creek/Dave
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 Post subject: Re: Do you remember shooting geese with lead?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:07 am 
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I knew a old fella who passed a while back who just kept shooting lead.After season one he figured he had the fine covered.That went on for years and he was never caught. As for cats I strive to save as many song birds and baby bunnies as I can one bullet at a time.


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 Post subject: Re: Do you remember shooting geese with lead?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:17 am 
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Pine Creek/Dave wrote:
Gentlemen,

As I said before we did our own test with the large amount of Mallard Ducks we had on my Grandfathers Dairy farm, not one Mallard Duck ever ate any of the lead shot placed in the feeding stations. The test continued for an entire year


Whether true or not, that is a meaningless test if it could be called a test at all. Wild ducks don't rely on feeding stations, eating:

Small fish and fish eggs
Snails, worms, slugs, and mollusks
Small crustaceans such as crayfish
Grass, leaves, and weeds
Algae and aquatic plants and roots
Frogs, tadpoles, salamanders, and other amphibians
Aquatic and land insects
Seeds and grain
Small berries, fruits, and nuts

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 Post subject: Re: Do you remember shooting geese with lead?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:04 am 
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RandyWakeman wrote:
Pine Creek/Dave wrote:
Gentlemen,

As I said before we did our own test with the large amount of Mallard Ducks we had on my Grandfathers Dairy farm, not one Mallard Duck ever ate any of the lead shot placed in the feeding stations. The test continued for an entire year


Whether true or not, that is a meaningless test if it could be called a test at all. Wild ducks don't rely on feeding stations, eating:

Small fish and fish eggs
Snails, worms, slugs, and mollusks
Small crustaceans such as crayfish
Grass, leaves, and weeds
Algae and aquatic plants and roots
Frogs, tadpoles, salamanders, and other amphibians
Aquatic and land insects
Seeds and grain
Small berries, fruits, and nuts


Another thing to consider is that waterfowl swallow grit and small stones for their gizzards in order to crush hard food items. Many researchers found that wild populations of certain duck and goose species often contained spent shot in their gizzards, as the birds can not differentiate shot from rocks. For instance:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 0783900903

While interesting, your test at the dairy is hardly conclusive, as it does not recreate the conditions found in a marsh. There have been several studies that examined either dead fowl picked up in marshes or freshly shot by hunters, and virtually all of them found spent shot in the gizzards of a certain percentage of birds (the study linked above found it in about 3% of birds examined).

I'm not necessarily saying that the lead shot ban was a good idea. I think it would have been better to ban lead only in hot spots like certain marshes. Banning it everywhere made enforcement easier, but probably had little effect in cornfields, small creeks, etc... However, from a PR perspective, at least we hunters could claim that we were willing to take steps to limit the number of losses due to lead poisoning.

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 Post subject: Re: Do you remember shooting geese with lead?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:40 am 
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Yes, Randy. Forced was probably a poor word choice.

Been trying to locate the National Wildlife Federation's 1986(?) lawsuit, but can find it.




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