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 Post subject: Re: Do you remember shooting geese with lead?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:15 am 
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Location: Plainfield, IL
Regardless of what we might think or wish for, so-called "no-tox" is here to stay for waterfowl hunting.

Tungsten has always been lead-level performance (Kent Tungsten Matrix) but the consumer has largely rejected the price excepting turkey loads.

The future is all bismuth.



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 Post subject: Re: Do you remember shooting geese with lead?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:57 am 
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Joined: Mon May 27, 2013 7:19 pm
Posts: 1929
Location: Indian Head Country Wisconsin
I’ve switched to bismuth for pheasants in no tox zones and when I shoot up my steel I’ll do so for waterfowl. One of my pheasant spots has a creek that holds late season ducks being open water and the bismuth knocks em down as I usually get longish jump shots while hunting in orange with my dog. I don’t duck hunt that much so a couple of boxes a year won’t break the bank. Check out BugDocs patterns on the last post of this thread.

https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewto ... 6&t=470371


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 Post subject: Re: Do you remember shooting geese with lead?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:24 pm 
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Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2005 7:25 pm
Posts: 9280
Location: Louisiana
3" #3 steel in 1¼ oz. 1450 - 1500 fps loads kills ducks well for me, such that I haven't felt a need to spend more money on Bismuth good though it may be.


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 Post subject: Re: Do you remember shooting geese with lead?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:30 am 
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Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2009 12:02 am
Posts: 175
Location: Wyoming
Kent Bismuth is the way to go. We have a no-tox pheasant area here in WY due to the water and marshes in the area. I used 3" 20 ga #3s and 2 3/4" 12 ga #5s. There were a couple of solid hits at 50 yards where the bird just folded and dropped. Not a very scientific trial but I was impressed. I'm looking forward to shooting geese.


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 Post subject: Re: Do you remember shooting geese with lead?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:36 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 9:11 am
Posts: 989
The uncertainty of supply is one of the problems with Tungsten shot varieties, in addition to hardness issues.
Tungsten matrix from Kent is a great performer but expensive.

What happened to Nice shot ? - tungsten density but soft. Here today, gone tomorrow.


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 Post subject: Re: Do you remember shooting geese with lead?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:38 pm 
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saskbooknut wrote:
The uncertainty of supply is one of the problems with Tungsten shot


It isn't supply, it is the price.

Image

Now, prices are falling across the spectrum, including lead. .

Lead battery scrap -25.84%
Domestic UBC -24.34%
316 solids,clips -16.39%
Hot-dipped galvanized -12.32%
No.1 heavy melt -7.04%
Molybdenum -4.21%
Shredded auto scrap -4.17%


Year-over-year as of 03/12/2019

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 Post subject: Re: Do you remember shooting geese with lead?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:00 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2004 9:23 am
Posts: 708
Location: Upper Mississippi River
Yes I hunted Ducks with lead and it was Great and I have tried all types of non toxic types of shotgun shells. Some were good some were excellent and some sucked.
But for price today I hunt waterfowl with Steel shot and just accept its limitations. It is not even close to lead shot in performance.
If the law would allow it I would go back to lead shot in a heart beat and give away all the Steel shot I have in my house and I have several cases.
For Geese lead 2 shot over Decoys or BB pass shooting in loads of 1 1/2oz or 1 7/8oz of lead shot was very effective.
Truth is there are a lot more geese today than back in the old days. Maybe that lead shot was to effective. :)


Last edited by 1100 Remington Man on Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Do you remember shooting geese with lead?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:11 pm 
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Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:19 pm
Posts: 500
The Federal HW 15 & TSS 18 (gm/cc) is ~38% & -63% (respectively) denser than lead as well as harder than even high antimony/plated lead. These pellets do things lead pellets couldn’t even dream of accomplishing. Rogers Sporting Goods is running a sale on the Federal HW in 10, 12 & 20 gauge offerings. Bismuth being softer, misshapen and lighter than lead is best reserved for your older (non steel pellet) shotguns.

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 Post subject: Re: Do you remember shooting geese with lead?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:52 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 9:35 am
Posts: 85
I hunted with hand loaded lead for years and was a 2-3/4", 1-1/4 oz, #5 at 1350 fps shooter for ducks and geese. Would shoot 7-1/2 over decoys for ducks. It worked well. I hand load steel now with a 2-3/4", 1-1/8 oz at 1479 fps (chronographed). Shot size is mostly #6 but sometimes #3. Steel patterns better than any of the magnum steel and choking is the key here. My preferred is a LM choked barrel and if the birds are sketchy I will use a Full. We head shoot - or try to- our birds so we like the tighter chokes. A lost bird is counted in our limit but we lose very, very few. My opinion is that steel kills and does it well....if your patterning is good. We put our guns on paper and can see where it actually throws.
Darrel


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 Post subject: Re: Do you remember shooting geese with lead?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:09 pm 
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Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:43 am
Posts: 706
mauserfan wrote:
I hunted with hand loaded lead for years and was a 2-3/4", 1-1/4 oz, #5 at 1350 fps shooter for ducks and geese. Would shoot 7-1/2 over decoys for ducks. It worked well. I hand load steel now with a 2-3/4", 1-1/8 oz at 1479 fps (chronographed). Shot size is mostly #6 but sometimes #3. Steel patterns better than any of the magnum steel and choking is the key here. My preferred is a LM choked barrel and if the birds are sketchy I will use a Full. We head shoot - or try to- our birds so we like the tighter chokes. A lost bird is counted in our limit but we lose very, very few. My opinion is that steel kills and does it well....if your patterning is good. We put our guns on paper and can see where it actually throws.
Darrel


You must shoot your birds close a tight as even with hyper velosity loads 6's are limited
to a tight pattern inside of 25 yds , anything farther you'll have crippling body hits with
that shots size lackof penetration with steel shot . Your first shot might be a possible head
shot but after that the 6's lack of penetration from the back of a bird going away is less
than limited . #3's out of a LM (.015) wouldn't shoot much tighter at closer distances
but your ability for success , going away ,would be much better . IMHO


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 Post subject: Re: Do you remember shooting geese with lead?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:59 am 
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Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 9:35 am
Posts: 85
Ravenanme wrote:
mauserfan wrote:
I hunted with hand loaded lead for years and was a 2-3/4", 1-1/4 oz, #5 at 1350 fps shooter for ducks and geese. Would shoot 7-1/2 over decoys for ducks. It worked well. I hand load steel now with a 2-3/4", 1-1/8 oz at 1479 fps (chronographed). Shot size is mostly #6 but sometimes #3. Steel patterns better than any of the magnum steel and choking is the key here. My preferred is a LM choked barrel and if the birds are sketchy I will use a Full. We head shoot - or try to- our birds so we like the tighter chokes. A lost bird is counted in our limit but we lose very, very few. My opinion is that steel kills and does it well....if your patterning is good. We put our guns on paper and can see where it actually throws.
Darrel


You must shoot your birds close a tight as even with hyper velosity loads 6's are limited
to a tight pattern inside of 25 yds , anything farther you'll have crippling body hits with
that shots size lackof penetration with steel shot . Your first shot might be a possible head
shot but after that the 6's lack of penetration from the back of a bird going away is less
than limited . #3's out of a LM (.015) wouldn't shoot much tighter at closer distances
but your ability for success , going away ,would be much better . IMHO


I understand what you are saying but.....I was pleasantly surprised by the performance os the #6 loads. Been shooting them about 5 years now and they do well...very well. I am the cleanup shooter so I shoot at many angles but always try to shoot up front. They perform but the dense patterning is the key I believe. With lead, I was a 7.5 shooter most of the time over decoys otherwise a #5 shooter. We are basically 30 yard shooters and always have been as I enjoy working them in tight. There are times that we need to shoot at 40 but I believe that is on the fringe. If I hadn't made the loads and started shooting them, I would not be a believer. ...Darrel


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 Post subject: Re: Do you remember shooting geese with lead?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:54 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 4:49 pm
Posts: 36
I agree that in my opinion the days of lead are long long gone.
I dare say that it will eventually happen with long gun ammo.
I also agree that Bismuth and Tungsten are both super
shot components but the price deters many. I look at it
another way in that if I can take more birds with less shots
(no clean up shots for crippled birds) then the price becomes
less and less. I am using the Hevi X from Hevishot waterfowl
wise and going to try the new Hevi Bismuth Upland for
my upland hunting


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 Post subject: Re: Do you remember shooting geese with lead?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 2:00 pm 
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Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2005 7:25 pm
Posts: 9280
Location: Louisiana
I use #2 and #3 steel with good results out to approximately 40 - 45 yards. I have shot teal using #6 steel with good results during the September teal only season, but would not select it for regular duck season and certainly wouldn’t take 40 yard shots on big ducks with it.


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 Post subject: Re: Do you remember shooting geese with lead?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:26 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:11 am
Posts: 4385
Location: Western Tampa, FL
Yes, shot large Canadians using copper plated BBs in factory Winchester Super
XX buffered loads. Deadly is an understatement!
I miss those days being made illegal based on IMO dubious findings and even more negligible results.


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 Post subject: Re: Do you remember shooting geese with lead?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:26 pm 
Field Grade
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Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:42 am
Posts: 59
Location: Calgary Ab.
I stopped hunting waterfowl for 25 yrs or so after steel came in. Restarted when I acquired a lab about 14 yrs ago. I used to load 1-3/8oz #4 and #2 in 12 ga and 1-1/4oz #4 in 20ga. These days with the high speed steel loads, I can live with them. I do see more long flyers than we used to with lead, and find the odd one that went down out of sight that we get brought to us or told about. There again too, I can't say as I get any more or less birds than I used to, as a result of using steel. I find myself using 3" everything these days, #3 and BB for the most part. I can't say as I kill any more or less birds with the 3" vs the 3-1/2", even though I have a bit less shot in the air, on the 12ga and quite a bit less on the 20ga in comparison. At present I'm using 1-1/4oz loads that run at 1400-1450 as I am running them in newer CIP proofed 12ga SXS's, just because in my mind, I'd rather run a bit less pressure on the SxS's than the 1550-1600 stuff. All I can tell you is they work. The 20ga SxS's get fed the 1350 #3 1oz loads, they kill ducks as good as I remember anything else doing it. I still use the 20 on specks and snows, just limit myself to the ones that decoy nice. But, I also pattern them every time I have to go buy new shells, found lots of inconsistencies in the ammo available out there, some of it surprised me, some didn't.
All in all, I'm just going to go and do it, have some fun with it.


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 Post subject: Re: Do you remember shooting geese with lead?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:55 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2013 2:13 am
Posts: 152
Location: Virginia
Shot lead at ducks and geese from the 70s to the early 90s. Nothing like it. Great times, few cripples. Early years of steel seemed to bring a lot more cripples. Current price of Bismuth and ITX are about the same around $150. I see better results with ITX (Iron/Tungsten)


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 Post subject: Re: Do you remember shooting geese with lead?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:16 pm 
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Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:19 pm
Posts: 500
oyeme wrote:
Yes, shot large Canadians using copper plated BBs in factory Winchester Super
XX buffered loads. Deadly is an understatement!
I miss those days being made illegal based on IMO dubious findings and even more negligible results.


How big were those Canadians? Over 6’ tall and +200 pounds? Did the Mounties check your guns and licenses?

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 Post subject: Re: Do you remember shooting geese with lead?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:47 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2013 2:13 am
Posts: 152
Location: Virginia
Some Canadians deserve shooting but all Canada geese do in season! :)



Just joking, I get the point.


mea culpa wrote:
oyeme wrote:
Yes, shot large Canadians using copper plated BBs in factory Winchester Super
XX buffered loads. Deadly is an understatement!
I miss those days being made illegal based on IMO dubious findings and even more negligible results.


How big were those Canadians? Over 6’ tall and +200 pounds? Did the Mounties check your guns and licenses?


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 Post subject: Re: Do you remember shooting geese with lead?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:32 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:46 pm
Posts: 107
RandyWakeman wrote:
duckgoosehunt wrote:
Also, while sales and demand remains healthy for 3-1/2 inch chambered 12 gauges, 3-1/2 inch ammo sales are low, and most people with 3-1/2 inch chambered 12 gauges use only 3 inch unfolded length shells.
I can't speak for most, but that's certainly true in my case. When I got my first SBE many years ago, I shot nothing but 3 1/2" shells. Then, one day while I was shooting ducks on a pond in Arkansas and beating myself up with each shot, I thought, "Why am I doing this?" I don't think I've shot a 3 1/2" shell since. In fact, in recent years, I'm shooting 28 ga more than 12 ga unless I'm shooting flyers in a field trial or hunt test.


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 Post subject: Re: Do you remember shooting geese with lead?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:47 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2005 7:10 pm
Posts: 131
Location: Atlanta Michigan
IN the 1970's and 1980's I used Winchester Western 2 3/4" 16Ga 3 1/4 drams equiv. 1 1/4 oz lead 2s for Canada's out to 40 yards, hit the birds in the head/ neck and they dropped, dead when they hit the ground most times.
In the early 2000's my son and I hunted with a pair of brothers, their mother owned a farm with a pond. We all used 3" steel BB's on giant Canada geese except the younger brother who used 2 3/4" steel loads and had the same effect on geese as we did with the 3" loads.




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