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 Post subject: Question on the Duck Stamp
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 7:53 pm 
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Location: Missouri, U.S.A.
Hypothetically speaking, if an individual were to go on a hunt without purchasing a duck stamp and they did not shoot any birds, but called birds for others to shoot, would this be a violation of the law?

Note: this post has been edited due to people misconstruing the intent of my question. I did not pose this question in an effort to circumvent paying for permits, only to satisfy a curiosity, and anyone who says otherwise can pound sand.



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Last edited by ThrowAway on Thu Aug 13, 2020 10:03 am, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Question on the Duck Stamp
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:03 pm 
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Location: Moncks Corner, SC
Yes - non-hunting guides are required to be fully licensed. My understanding is that if you were totally passive without calling, helping pick up decoys or handling birds or shells then you could say that you were not participating in the hunt. But, if the GW wanted to be a prick he could force you to go to court and defend yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: Question on the Duck Stamp
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:06 pm 
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Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:47 pm
Posts: 410
Location: N. IL
If you do not have a gun in your possession and you are not shooting birds, why would you need a hunting license or a federal waterfowl stamp?

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 Post subject: Re: Question on the Duck Stamp
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:15 pm 
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Location: Missouri, U.S.A.
noweil wrote:
If you do not have a gun in your possession and you are not shooting birds, why would you need a hunting license or a federal waterfowl stamp?


I'm not saying you would need those things, hence the posed question. But, in my hypothetical scenario, the hunter would be actively assisting hunters in the process of taking game by using calls, which to me appears to walk a very fine line between hunting and spectating.

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"I had rather be shut up in a very modest cottage with my books, my family and a few old friends, and letting the world roll on as it liked, than to occupy the most splendid post which any human power can give."Thomas Jefferson, 1788


Last edited by ThrowAway on Thu Aug 13, 2020 9:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Question on the Duck Stamp
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:19 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:55 am
Posts: 5529
Location: Hemingway, S.C. 29554
You will have to ask the Federal & State game departments that. Presumably the regulations were made & passed into law by our legislators. Here in SC, if one person is fishing, everybody in the boat is required to have a fishing license. It is not hard to imagine why that is the law!


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 Post subject: Re: Question on the Duck Stamp
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:23 pm 
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Location: Missouri, U.S.A.
geometric wrote:
You will have to ask the Federal & State game departments that. Presumably the regulations were made & passed into law by our legislators. Here in SC, if one person is fishing, everybody in the boat is required to have a fishing license. It is not hard to imagine why that is the law!


I would, but there was never any question as to whether I would get the permits, and I would hate to sit on hold for the typical government agency phone wait times just to satisfy a curiosity.

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 Post subject: Re: Question on the Duck Stamp
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:04 am 
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Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2011 10:46 am
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Location: Colorado Springs, Co
noweil wrote:
If you do not have a gun in your possession and you are not shooting birds, why would you need a hunting license or a federal waterfowl stamp?


Acting like a “guide”.


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 Post subject: Re: Question on the Duck Stamp
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2020 10:57 am 
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Location: Louisiana
Dr Duk wrote:
noweil wrote:
If you do not have a gun in your possession and you are not shooting birds, why would you need a hunting license or a federal waterfowl stamp?


Acting like a “guide”.


You'd be participating in the hunting of waterfowl even if not shooting them yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: Question on the Duck Stamp
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2020 10:23 pm 
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Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:47 pm
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Location: N. IL
lossking wrote:
Dr Duk wrote:
noweil wrote:
If you do not have a gun in your possession and you are not shooting birds, why would you need a hunting license or a federal waterfowl stamp?


Acting like a “guide”.


You'd be participating in the hunting of waterfowl even if not shooting them yourself.


I'm not buying it. Why can I still call birds and participate in a hunt once I have killed my limit of birds? I'm not shooting anymore birds but I am still part of the hunt. If he is guiding he needs to be licensed as a guide. He is not guiding, is not shooting birds, and has no birds in his possession, I do not believe he needs a license or stamps to blow a call or set decoys.

I will reach out to my buddies at USFWS tomorrow. I will get an answer.

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 Post subject: Re: Question on the Duck Stamp
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:39 am 
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Joined: Mon May 27, 2013 7:19 pm
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Location: Indian Head Country Wisconsin
In the Wisconsin State statutes hunting is defined as:

“42) “Hunt" or “hunting" includes shooting, shooting at, pursuing, taking, capturing or killing or attempting to capture or kill any wild animal.”

I would put calling as falling under “pursuing” or “attempting to capture.” I.E. you are facilitating others to shoot and kill the birds you call. Since you are “hunting” when with others with a gun you would need to be fully licensed for waterfowl hunting including a state and federal waterfowl stamp. If you were all by yourself without a gun, not in camo, etc. I suppose you could argue you were merely practicing calling with no means to capture or kill any bird.

Same concept would apply if you were participating in a deer drive but not carrying a gun. By walking and driving the deer you are attempting to capture them by virtue of the shooters with guns.


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 Post subject: Re: Question on the Duck Stamp
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:11 am 
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Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2008 8:49 pm
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Location: Moncks Corner, SC
Bottom line is that this question shouldn't even be asked. If you participate in the sport - support the sport. It's that easy.


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 Post subject: Re: Question on the Duck Stamp
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:29 am 
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noweil wrote:
I'm not buying it. Why can I still call birds and participate in a hunt once I have killed my limit of birds? I'm not shooting anymore birds but I am still part of the hunt. If he is guiding he needs to be licensed as a guide. He is not guiding, is not shooting birds, and has no birds in his possession, I do not believe he needs a license or stamps to blow a call or set decoys.

I will reach out to my buddies at USFWS tomorrow. I will get an answer.


Let us know what your USFWS buddies say.


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 Post subject: Re: Question on the Duck Stamp
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:54 am 
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Joined: Thu Feb 06, 2020 10:11 pm
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Location: Missouri, U.S.A.
Rubberhead wrote:
Bottom line is that this question shouldn't even be asked. If you participate in the sport - support the sport. It's that easy.


If we’re going to participate in the sport, we should also know the law. I agree that we should all support the sport with the stamps and permits. But if there is a loophole out there that lets people reap most of the benefits without making any contributions, wouldn’t it be better for us as hunters, rather than to ignore the topic because it’s offensive to us, to instead be aware of it so that we may push to get it changed?

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"I had rather be shut up in a very modest cottage with my books, my family and a few old friends, and letting the world roll on as it liked, than to occupy the most splendid post which any human power can give."Thomas Jefferson, 1788


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 Post subject: Re: Question on the Duck Stamp
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2020 9:25 am 
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Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:04 pm
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Rubberhead wrote:
Bottom line is that this question shouldn't even be asked. If you participate in the sport - support the sport. It's that easy.


That’s kind of what I was thinking. Do we need to start a go fund me page to help the guy purchase a duck stamp?

What’s wrong with supporting the sport and waterfowl? If all of the stamp receipts just went into the general treasury to be spent on “universal healthcare for undocumented Americans” or something like that, then I can see being stingy.

However according to the US Fish and Wildlife Service website, “ Federal Duck Stamps are conservation revenue stamps; 98 percent of the purchase price goes directly to help acquire and protect wetland habitat and purchase conservation easements for the National Wildlife Refuge System.”


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 Post subject: Re: Question on the Duck Stamp
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:37 am 
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If you are calling ducks with no intention of hunting them you may be considered to be harassing wildlife.

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 Post subject: Re: Question on the Duck Stamp
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2020 6:42 pm 
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Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:47 pm
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Location: N. IL
Here is how I put the question that went to the first Federal Warden:

"This is an internet question from Shotgun World. If an individual were to go on a hunt without purchasing a duck stamp and did not carry a gun, but called birds for others to shoot, would this be a violation?"

The answer was "No."


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 Post subject: Re: Question on the Duck Stamp
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2020 6:59 pm 
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Location: Indian Head Country Wisconsin
Each state decides what “hunting” is by State statute when they issue a hunting license or require a hunting license to “hunt” along with a book of regulations about what are legal and illegal means of hunting. If the OP really wants to know, he should ask the local DNR warden or his state DNR for clarification. I suspect he’ll get a different answer.

For example, if you are mentoring a youth during the special youth only hunting seasons in Wisconsin you are not allowed to have a weapon but must possess a hunting license and the youth must be licensed too. And .... you can call birds for your kid, but he must shoot them.

And as a first hand experience, my good friend was being shaken down by the warden when his kid was pier fishing from the public boat landing because the warden said he was fishing and therefore needed a license. He did not have any fishing gear at all. He protested, did all kinda stuff, and said he wasn’t helping etc getting the dnr guy all riled up and ready to write a ticket because he refused to show his fishing license. Then he pulled out his tribal card and told the Dnr warden to pound sand as he was on tribal land along Lake Superior and didn't need no stinking State of WI fishing license. He doesn’t play the Indian card too much, but when the wardens act like jerks he likes to yank there chain.


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 Post subject: Re: Question on the Duck Stamp
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:51 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2003 12:52 am
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As someone mentioned, one would need to pose this question to the state game commission as how "hunting" is defined is determined by the state. In Minnesota, the act of "taking, pursuing, capturing, etc." requires one to be licensed for such activities. One must also be licensed if "assisting" in the taking of game which would include calling, setting decoys, driving, posting, spotting, retrieving, or any other action to assist in bringing game to bag.

At one time Minnesota state and Federal law stated a violation of one was a violation of the other but that may have changed a few years back. As I do not believe there is a Federal law governing this topic, it falls back to what the state determines. And if the Feds choose to enforce it.


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 Post subject: Re: Question on the Duck Stamp
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 10:41 am 
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Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:47 pm
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Location: N. IL
The USFWS warden in the local office states that "calling is "aiding" in the take and would require a waterfowl stamp."

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 Post subject: Re: Question on the Duck Stamp
PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2020 11:20 am 
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Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:23 pm
Posts: 21
Location: Arlington VA
If varies state by state I'm sure, but I know in PA if you are participating in the hunt, you have to adhere to all of the rules just like an active hunter, gun or no gun. That said and somewhat related: I collect the FED stamps and prefer my sig not to be 'obnoxiously large'. So one year I got a blind draw and I asked a Deputy Warden who was singing me in if my sig was "legal" -- it was across the very bottom of the stamp, he said "Yeah". It was clearly legible and my legal name. Two weeks later I'm near that blind area (in a public field) and the Chief Warden walks up to me, checks me out, says my stamp is illegal b/c it wasn't "across the face" (from lower left corner to upper right corner)... I told him the discussion I had with his colleague two weeks prior. After a 5 min discussion and him seeing my Federal law enforcement ID I'm convinced that was the only reason he cut me a break... he finally said "Well sign it again", I did and that was the end of it. People wonder why the sport is losing participants...



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