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 Post subject: Does non-toxic shot help the environment?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2020 7:54 pm 
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We waterfowlers talk a lot about which type of shot is "best", but so far I have seen nothing better than lead shot. The regulations mandating non-toxic shot were touted as a means of protecting the environment. Is there any data that confirms that any benefit has actually been realized? Not an argument, just a question.



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 Post subject: Re: Does non-toxic shot help the environment?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2020 8:17 pm 
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I'm not sure about the environment, but here in Coruptafornia, they said it was to save the condor. They said, the decline of the condor population was due to animals being wounded with lead shot then eaten by the bird and causing its death. Then it's my understanding that was debunked, but we still have no lead on all game.
I'm wondering what they'll come up with next after the steel shot hits a rock causes a spark and starts one of these fires they can't put out.

I suppose dentists will benefit from us having to use steel shot.


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 Post subject: Re: Does non-toxic shot help the environment?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2020 8:19 pm 
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Well, yes & no. The non tox regs. were originally enacted in areas of very heavy gunning where ducks were picking up lead shot from areas like sandbars when they were getting grit. Then it was expanded to everywhere. It is legally a matter for each State to decide but the Feds forced it on the States, like it or not. Many people believe there are better solutions. Steel shot is a poor solution at best. Ed Lowery, who was a ballistics expert for Olin (Winchester) wrote that if you alloy a small amount of magnesium in lead, it will dissolve into harmless compounds in water in a matter of hours. Yes, there are better solutions but the government is not interested in finding them. If & when it happens, it will have to be the private sector that does it. The push to ban lead has reached insane levels from bureaucrats with one track minds!


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 Post subject: Re: Does non-toxic shot help the environment?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2020 8:40 pm 
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geometric wrote:
Well, yes & no. The non tox regs. were originally enacted in areas of very heavy gunning where ducks were picking up lead shot from areas like sandbars when they were getting grit. Then it was expanded to everywhere. It is legally a matter for each State to decide but the Feds forced it on the States, like it or not. Many people believe there are better solutions. Steel shot is a poor solution at best. Ed Lowery, who was a ballistics expert for Olin (Winchester) wrote that if you alloy a small amount of magnesium in lead, it will dissolve into harmless compounds in water in a matter of hours. Yes, there are better solutions but the government is not interested in finding them. If & when it happens, it will have to be the private sector that does it. The push to ban lead has reached insane levels from bureaucrats with one track minds!

I wish the powers that be would evaluate the efficacy of the regulation.

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 Post subject: Re: Does non-toxic shot help the environment?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2020 8:44 pm 
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Colt99 wrote:

I'm wondering what they'll come up with next after the steel shot hits a rock causes a spark and starts one of these fires they can't put out.

I suppose dentists will benefit from us having to use steel shot.


Understanding the humor and irony in this, those things are definitely not beyond the pale these days.

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 Post subject: Re: Does non-toxic shot help the environment?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 9:17 am 
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To quote myself, "I would shoot soy beans if it would bring the ducks back!" Duck hunters, through their dollars, do more for ducks than any other group. High velocity steel has bought a few more yards but that runs out real fast & at what cost? Many believe as many or more ducks are mortally wounded by steel as are saved by the lead ban. Most hunters will tell you how far they can kill ducks in yards or meters but few have a clue. However, most experienced duck hunters know when a duck is in their "kill zone" even if they can't accurately put a number on it. That distance drops very rapidly with pellets that lack density. Density rules in shotgun ballistics! Trying to get unwilling regulators to do research on better alternatives is an uphill battle!


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 Post subject: Re: Does non-toxic shot help the environment?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 11:28 am 
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It would indeed be interesting to see comparative lead poisoning study statistics from current compared to pre-ban, lead days. That makes the assumption, of course, that such comparative studies exist.

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 Post subject: Re: Does non-toxic shot help the environment?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 11:52 am 
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Tidefanatic wrote:
It would indeed be interesting to see comparative lead poisoning study statistics from current compared to pre-ban, lead days. That makes the assumption, of course, that such comparative studies exist.


There is no need for that Tide, because you are assuming that science could prove something other than that lead is the most poisonous metal on the planet. We all know that is true, and even a smattering of lead from guns in our upland fields has caused many "environmentalist" gunners of late to prefer steel shot. (sarc off)

Then there is the following glowing reports of findings on use of no-tox shot.

"The results of this important report suggest that the ban on lead shot has been a resounding success for the health of waterfowl populations, and has almost certainly contributed to the record numbers of waterfowl we have seen in recent years. I'm proud that the Service took the initiative in phasing out lead shot for waterfowl hunting, and continues to expedite the approval of nontoxic alternatives to lead shot for hunters," said Service Director Jamie Rappaport Clark.


https://www.fws.gov/news/ShowNews.cfm?I ... 9027B6B5D3

I fully expect the lead shot ban to be universally mandated for all bird hunting, fishing weights and big game hunting in near future. It is a snow ball rolling downhill.


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 Post subject: Re: Does non-toxic shot help the environment?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 9:10 am 
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Colt99 wrote:
I'm not sure about the environment, but here in Coruptafornia, they said it was to save the condor. They said, the decline of the condor population was due to animals being wounded with lead shot then eaten by the bird and causing its death. Then it's my understanding that was debunked, but we still have no lead on all game.
I'm wondering what they'll come up with next after the steel shot hits a rock causes a spark and starts one of these fires they can't put out.

I suppose dentists will benefit from us having to use steel shot.


Mine did, to the tune of $2,000.


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 Post subject: Re: Does non-toxic shot help the environment?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 9:46 am 
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lossking wrote:
Colt99 wrote:
I'm not sure about the environment, but here in Coruptafornia, they said it was to save the condor. They said, the decline of the condor population was due to animals being wounded with lead shot then eaten by the bird and causing its death. Then it's my understanding that was debunked, but we still have no lead on all game.
I'm wondering what they'll come up with next after the steel shot hits a rock causes a spark and starts one of these fires they can't put out.

I suppose dentists will benefit from us having to use steel shot.


Mine did, to the tune of $2,000.


That sucks! I’m sure it happens often.
If you lived here, you could probably file a lawsuit And win against the ammo manufacturer for making the shot too hard and not displaying that warning on the ammo box!


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 Post subject: Re: Does non-toxic shot help the environment?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 10:07 am 
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I have a feeling that in the next five years you will see states start to mandate non-lead shot for all birds. Half of the upland shells I see on the shelf of late are steel shot.


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 Post subject: Re: Does non-toxic shot help the environment?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 10:20 am 
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The thought of steel shot makes me ill! I vowed I would never shoot steel shot & to this day I have been true to that pledge. I originally sold all my decoys & quit duck hunting & didn't start duck hunting again until alternatives were available. The good news is some non toxic alternatives are better than lead ever was but lead remains the most economical shot. Lead has been in common use on the planet since before the bronze age. Yes, lead is toxic but there are ways to neutralize it's toxicity. The regulators not only turn a blind eye to better solutions but their approval guidelines are so archaic that they preclude better solutions. The FWS has done little, if any research on the subject since the 60's. The FWS are employees, nobody voted for them. They work for us. Since when did the FWS become the ultimate authority on what is environmentally safe to shoot at a duck? Today, our political choices are between pedophiles, criminals, tyrants that want to control us & patriots that want to restore power to you, the people. Is it any wonder a growing number of people don't trust the government! The opposition's greatest talent is distorting the facts to make you believe what they want you to believe. Hopefully, restoring power to the people will have a trickle down effect!


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 Post subject: Re: Does non-toxic shot help the environment?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 11:46 am 
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On another forum I read there are a couple falconers that post occasionally. One of them said it takes very few lead pellets to give a raptor lead poisoning and they are very careful about what they turn their birds loose on.

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 Post subject: Re: Does non-toxic shot help the environment?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 11:58 am 
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So how does that get segregated from raptors in their natural environment?


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 Post subject: Re: Does non-toxic shot help the environment?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2020 8:36 am 
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Lead is very toxic to birds. Its been proven lots of times. Birds are different from humans. They cant go around eating lead shot like humans can do.

Everywhere is going lead free


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 Post subject: Re: Does non-toxic shot help the environment?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2020 8:46 am 
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cookoff013 wrote:
Lead is very toxic to birds. Its been proven lots of times. Birds are different from humans. They cant go around eating lead shot like humans can do.

Everywhere is going lead free


So give us a idea of the wads you are using for steel shot ?
Reading there are wads made of vegetable matter and other water soluble ingredients ,
what is worst plastic wads on top of the ground or Lead shot which migrates down
where it came from ?


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 Post subject: Re: Does non-toxic shot help the environment?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2020 9:36 am 
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Do birds ingest plastic wads?


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 Post subject: Re: Does non-toxic shot help the environment?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2020 10:03 am 
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It is hard to say what a bird might eat. Sea turtles eat it! The only time a bird picks up a lead pellet, other than a freak occurrence, is when they are eating grit from areas like sandbars. I am not suggesting that we turn a blind eye to the problem. I am suggesting that we shouldn't turn a blind eye to better solutions & realistic regulations!


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 Post subject: Re: Does non-toxic shot help the environment?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2020 10:12 am 
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What about a pellet or two IN the duck, does that screw them up with lead too? Like a cripple that can still fly off.

I've shot pheasants with copper shot in them while I was shooting plain lead.

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 Post subject: Re: Does non-toxic shot help the environment?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2020 1:14 pm 
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