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 Post subject: Re: 16 GA. ON WILD PHEASANTS
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:21 am 
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DeanMk wrote:
EricB wrote:
DesertMuleDeer wrote:
I’ve never used TSS but with lead, clearly, an 1 1/8 of shot at 1295 works just fine through a 16 bore. Unless, you’re trying to sell new guns and ammo on the Internet in which case it doesn’t work as well.


Very true.

Agreed.


Absolutely, and this thread is about hunting pheasants with the 16ga, not hunting turkeys. TSS is outrageously expensive, too much so for it to be viable for anything but turkey hunting where few shots are fired. Reloading cuts the cost somewhat, but most pheasant hunters don't reload, they shoot factory loaded lead shotshells.




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 Post subject: Re: 16 GA. ON WILD PHEASANTS
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:50 am 
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Location: SE Ohio...where ruffed grouse were
Folks get blinded by technology or by raising scenarios for which any new technology works...the "I need to kill stuff farther or dead-er" ideas.
Or, they do not wish to be that guy or gal (or their tots) who has not "scored" yet or ...it goes on.
Dem folks eat up the new advantages in their own game of besting an imagined top-of-the-heap challenger in the form of a turkey or pheasant or whatever.
All part, small or large depending upon viewpoint, in why the curve for small and upland game hunters is less than positive and the curve for larger game can be shortened out of " oh, yea it was fun but...that's it?".
There always has been and always will be hunters who look for the next never-fail or 65 yards as there will always be those who feed the need and drive the new-next bandwagon.

Certainly there are hunters and shooters for whom health or age or particulars finds new technology ...helpful.
Enough to keep the marketers happy?....no, that raises a call for the bandwagon.

One has a choice of who to be and what to use...fine and right.
Let's not be so silly tho to pretend that happiness and satisfaction(which perhaps should be placed first) only follows the new next which is tumbled off the wagon.
For, if so, you are fixing to miss many of the best reasons to be there....and probably, why you went there in the first place.
imho, of course.


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 Post subject: Re: 16 GA. ON WILD PHEASANTS
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 1:56 pm 
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lossking wrote:
Absolutely, and this thread is about hunting pheasants with the 16ga, not hunting turkeys. TSS is outrageously expensive, too much so for it to be viable for anything but turkey hunting where few shots are fired. Reloading cuts the cost somewhat, but most pheasant hunters don't reload, they shoot factory loaded lead shotshells.


The "thread," from 2018, originally asked if a 12 gauge was better. It is. So is a 20 gauge. It never was about if a 16 gauge can kill pheasant, of course it can . . . and so can a 28 gauge.

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 Post subject: Re: 16 GA. ON WILD PHEASANTS
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:13 pm 
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Actually, the OP originally asked.....
870-LEFTY wrote:
Anyone use the 16ga. on wild pheasants in places like S.D., N.D., Kansas? If so, what loads & chokes do you use, especially in an O/U or SxS? Is it enough gun or is a 12ga. better?

So yes, this thread IS about hunting pheasant with a 16 ga. shotgun.
The only mention of another gauge is 12, as an aside, concerning a comparative of effectiveness.


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 Post subject: Re: 16 GA. ON WILD PHEASANTS
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:50 pm 
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DeanMk wrote:
Actually, the OP originally asked.....
870-LEFTY wrote:
Anyone use the 16ga. on wild pheasants in places like S.D., N.D., Kansas? If so, what loads & chokes do you use, especially in an O/U or SxS? Is it enough gun or is a 12ga. better?

So yes, this thread IS about hunting pheasant with a 16 ga. shotgun.
The only mention of another gauge is 12, as an aside, concerning a comparative of effectiveness.


Don't forget how good the .410 is for turkeys with TSS. :lol: :lol: :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: 16 GA. ON WILD PHEASANTS
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:42 pm 
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RandyWakeman wrote:
lossking wrote:
Absolutely, and this thread is about hunting pheasants with the 16ga, not hunting turkeys. TSS is outrageously expensive, too much so for it to be viable for anything but turkey hunting where few shots are fired. Reloading cuts the cost somewhat, but most pheasant hunters don't reload, they shoot factory loaded lead shotshells.


The "thread," from 2018, originally asked if a 12 gauge was better. It is. So is a 20 gauge. It never was about if a 16 gauge can kill pheasant, of course it can . . . and so can a 28 gauge.


To me, just saying a 12 or 20 is "better" than a 16 is debatable. I'm not particularly in love with any gauge but there are certain combinations that I've found to work really well for me for certain things. A light, good-patterning 16 gauge can be hard to beat for upland game. Most of my experience is with Model 12 16 gauges, which for me is a great upland combination. With that combination with Modified choke and Remington Express loads I've taken many pheasants out to 50-60 yards. A full choke M12 has proven for me to be too much and will often tear birds up at under 35 yards with solid hits. Other combinations I haven't tried included 16s in Ithacas and Auto-5s. They are probably as good in that many swear by them. I have tried Browning 16s in the BPS and Citori and they worked great too.

I've never fired a 3" 20 gauge round, but the M12 combination mentioned above has for me proven to have an additional 10 yards or so of range over 2 3/4" 20 gauges and for me indistinguishable field performance from a similar 12 gauge load, though technically the 12 gauge has superior ballistics on paper. Based upon my experience, I think 16s and 12s produce similar field performance. Alternatively, 28s and 20s for me have performed similarly.


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 Post subject: Re: 16 GA. ON WILD PHEASANTS
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:03 pm 
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Nobody is disputing what you have said. The point being made here is that there have been tremendous advances in ammunition technology over the years that have vastly improved the ballistics. The HUGE point here is that with these advances, the 16 ga has been left behind with ammunition that was good 50 years ago. None of the advanced ammunition has appeared in the 16 bore. THAT is where the difference is. Sure, the 16 would shine if the ammunition makers made the advances in technology available in that bore, but they haven't. So you are stuck with a 1970 automobile trying to compete with a car of today. Thats all.

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 Post subject: Re: 16 GA. ON WILD PHEASANTS
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:42 pm 
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There is no doubt that within range, a 16 gage is plenty gun for pheasants but to say it is better than a 12 or 20 requires specifics on what is better. If it’s lighter weight ... then a 3 in 20 gage wins as it throws more lead and weighs less than the 16 gage. The 12 gage wins in the tossing more lead game as you can get 1 and 3/8 ounce loads still in 2 and 3/4 inch and we haven’t even tapped the potential of 3 inch shells yet. If no tox shot is required and you don’t want exotics, then the 3 inch 12 gage wins for using steel shot. So what exactly does the 16 gage do better than the 3 inch 20 gage or 12 gage? Dead serious as I don’t see one advantage over a 12 or 3 inch 20 gage with 1 and 1/4 ounce number 5 which is my go to load and gun for pheasants.


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 Post subject: Re: 16 GA. ON WILD PHEASANTS
PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:14 am 
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Patently Obvious,

There is some debate over a term known as shot string.
In its simplest terms, Shot String is the 3 dimensional shape of the shot pattern after it leaves the barrel.
It is thought that to throw a weight of shot that is on the heavy side for a certain gauge, it would be a better idea to move up to the next size gauge, because the shot string would be a preferable shape, and thus, the entire group of pellets would pattern "better".
Traditionally, a 2 3/4" 20 gauge comes in a 7/8 oz. regular shot charge and a 1 oz. heavy shot charge.
With 16 gauge, the shot charges come in at 1 oz. and 1 1/8 oz.
The advent of the 3" shell allowed the 20 gauge to throw 1 1/8 oz. and 1 1/4 oz. shot charges.
Because of the smaller diameter of the shell and the barrel, the 3" 20 gauge shot charge is thought to throw a long and skinny shot string, thus the spread wouldn't be of a preferable density, width-wise, because the pattern would be "thicker" (or maybe "deeper" is a better word use?).
To some, this is one reason that makes a 1 1/8 oz. 2 3/4" 16 gauge load superior to a 1 1/8 oz. 3" 20 gauge load, everything else being equal.
Compared to a 12 gauge, the 16 gauge gun could be built lighter, since its a smaller gauge.
At one time, it was considered the "boy's gauge", due to its smaller size, kinda like how we see the 20 gauge these days.
So there's a couple of reasons why someone might think the 16 gauge is "better" (or even superior) to a 12 or a 20.


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 Post subject: Re: 16 GA. ON WILD PHEASANTS
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:23 pm 
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casonet wrote:
Nobody is disputing what you have said. The point being made here is that there have been tremendous advances in ammunition technology over the years that have vastly improved the ballistics. The HUGE point here is that with these advances, the 16 ga has been left behind with ammunition that was good 50 years ago. None of the advanced ammunition has appeared in the 16 bore. THAT is where the difference is. Sure, the 16 would shine if the ammunition makers made the advances in technology available in that bore, but they haven't. So you are stuck with a 1970 automobile trying to compete with a car of today. Thats all.


I guess I don't understand this analogy. I have a 1968 car and it's antiquated compared to modern cars. My 68, which was a sporty car when new, won't come close to accelerating, stopping or handling like a new Camry or my 2020 Tundra for that matter, not to mention differences in mileage, emissions, comfort and features. I haven't seen the same performance difference with shotguns or ammo. I've seen 16 gauge Model 12s with the load I've described take pheasants consistently and cleanly at 50 and 60 yards. Are these modern 20 and 12 gauge loads cleaning killing pheasants past 60 yards?

Though some of the brands have changed, I can't say the performance of loads I use in 12 or 20 have changed much either over the last couple of decades. If anything it may be a little harder to find good loads with good hard shot today but maybe I'm using the wrong ammo and just don't know it.

All of what I'm saying doesn't apply if using Tungsten or TSS, but I don't personally know of anybody using that on pheasants.


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 Post subject: Re: 16 GA. ON WILD PHEASANTS
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:45 pm 
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Put another way, I can't tell a difference between the performance of my Benelli M2 12 gauge (loaded with whatever better-quality, high-velocity 1 1/4 ounce loads I find at Academy or Cabelas) and my late 1940s production Model 12 16 gauge (loaded with 1 1/8 ounce Remington Express). Both guns handle and weigh about the same with the 16 gauge a few ounces lighter. If anything, I feel the 16 gauge performs maybe a little better on game than the 12 gauge, which I think has to do more with the gun than anything. In my experience, those old Model 12s pattern really well with a wide variety of loads for some reason.


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 Post subject: Re: 16 GA. ON WILD PHEASANTS
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:47 am 
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DesertMuleDeer,

I gotta wonder if that isn't because (at least in some small part) of the type of choke used in those guns.
The Model 12 should have a traditional taper choke, while the Beretta would likely have interchangeable chokes.
I never liked the idea of the shot moving unimpeded for 24-26 inches, only to suddenly hit a constriction 4-6 inches before leaving the barrel.

Dean


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 Post subject: Re: 16 GA. ON WILD PHEASANTS
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:08 pm 
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My safe with my Model 12 is inoperable right now. Once the locksmith gets out to open it, I will pattern my 16 gauge. I’ve been planning to pattern a couple of Benellis so will do both.


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 Post subject: Re: 16 GA. ON WILD PHEASANTS
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:13 pm 
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Interestingly enough, my dad often hunts a full choke 16 gauge Model 12. I think the full choke in that combo is too tight in that they will often tear a pheasant up at 35-40 yards.


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 Post subject: Re: 16 GA. ON WILD PHEASANTS
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:40 pm 
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Dessert mule I use tungsten in my 20 gage for pheasants when on WPAs which require no tox. I will also use it when hunting creek bottoms late season as there is a good chance to jump a few ducks once the lakes and ponds freeze. I’d rather use my 20 gage than lug the 12 gage with 3 inch steel loads. A couple three shells not really that much money in the scheme of things when hunting wild pheasant in Wisconsin where on a lot of trips Im just exercising the dog.

As to your observation on the 16 and 12 being roughly equivalent in the field, I can say the same thing. I have not noticed any decrease in my ability to kill pheasants using a 3 inch 1 and 1/4 ounce #5 lead 20 gage load. If anything, since I’m a tad quicker, I’d say I do better but that’s gun weight and not load related.


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 Post subject: Re: 16 GA. ON WILD PHEASANTS
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:46 pm 
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DesertMuleDeer wrote:
Interestingly enough, my dad often hunts a full choke 16 gauge Model 12. I think the full choke in that combo is too tight in that they will often tear a pheasant up at 35-40 yards.

My dad hunted with a Full choked 12 ga. Remington 11-48 for about 25 years, until he got the 1100 lightweight.
When you hunt upland with dogs, your shots tend to be in the 15-20 yard range.
We used Duck & Pheasant #6's (sometimes he broke out the #4's or #5's) and I never saw him tear up a bird with those loads.
Pheasant, Huns, Chukar, Bobwhite, he didn't care. When the bird pops up in front of you, you shoot'em with what you're carrying!
My ol' man was deadly with that 12 ga.

Dean


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 Post subject: Re: 16 GA. ON WILD PHEASANTS
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 8:40 pm 
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Those sound like great memories, Dean.


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 Post subject: Re: 16 GA. ON WILD PHEASANTS
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:06 pm 
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[quote="DesertMuleDeer"]I will pattern my 16 gauge.[quote]

Here are a few of my pattern numbers to try and compare the performance differences between the 20-, 16-, and 12-gauge upland lead loads.

Obviously, it would be best to have all the pattern work done with a 1 1/8-ounce of No. 6 lead shot in all three shells; but the closest I can come is a 20-gauge 1-ounce No. 6 lead load and a 1 1/8-ounce load in 16- and 12-gauges. At least we can compare pattern percentages for those loads in all three gauges!

Patterns from a 20-gauge Browning Citori with 28" Invector-plus barrels and Briley flush chokes (patterns average of five, 30" post-shot scribed circle, yardage taped muzzle to target, in-shell pellet count average of five, and choke constriction from bore gauge).

20 GA 2 3/4" RELOAD (STS, R209, BLUE DOT)
1 oz #6 lead (233 pellets) 1200 fps
40 YARDS – Full (.023” const.) / pattern 159 (68%)
40 YARDS – XFull (.026” const.) / pattern 171 (73%)

Patterns from two 16-gauge Winchester M12s (1937 & 1956) with 28" integral chokes (patterns average of five, 30" post-shot scribed circle, yardage taped muzzle to target, in-shell pellet count average of five, and choke constriction from bore gauge).

MODEL 12 1956
16 GA 2 3/4" REMINGTON PHEASANT LOAD
1 1/8 oz #6 lead (248 pellets) 1295 fps
40 YARDS – Full (.029” const.) / pattern 176 (71%)

MODEL 12 1937
16 GA 2 3/4" REMINGTON PHEASANT LOAD
1 1/8 oz #6 lead (248 pellets) 1295 fps
40 YARDS – Full (.028” const.) / pattern 172 (69%)

Patterns from a 12-gauge Browning Citori with 28" Invector-plus barrels and Briley flush chokes (patterns average of five, 30" post-shot scribed circle, yardage taped muzzle to target, in-shell pellet count average of five, and choke constriction from bore gauge).

12 GA 2 3/4" RELOAD (STS, R209, GREEN DOT)
1 1/8 oz #6 lead (267 pellets) @ 1225 fps
40 YARDS – LM (.016” const.) / pattern 173 (65%)
40 YARDS – M (.021” const.) / pattern 182 (68%)
40 YARDS – IM (.025” const.) / pattern 195 (73%)

I doubt if a cock could tell the difference! Hope this helps, good luck!


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 Post subject: Re: 16 GA. ON WILD PHEASANTS
PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2021 7:30 am 
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Thanks for the data Joe. Your data confirms for me why the 16 gage loses. It patterns the same as the 20 and 12 with the advantage of neither. The 12 is more versatile and can throw higher payloads and is the winner when steel shot is needed. The 20 is lighter and can throw higher payloads with 3 inch so this the leaves the 16 gage with its 1900s performance while the other two gages have advanced via a 3 inch chamber. Use em if you got em and just like nostalgia. A 3 inch 16 gage seems like a good thing but the horse has already left the barn.


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 Post subject: Re: 16 GA. ON WILD PHEASANTS
PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 3:59 pm 
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Joe Hunter, Thank you for the pattern data.

Patently Obvious, I agree with you in many instances but where a 16 gauge shines is when it is on a similar frame as a 20 gauge, which many are (Model 12 and many Brownings for instance). With that said and if buying a new gun, a 20 or 12 is much easier these days. Though, I admit to being a little intrigued with the idea of the new A-5 but just have never pulled the trigger on buying one.




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