Randy seems to have changed his mind about “wouldn’t you rather shoot a 20 ga”. I guess that comes with experience. Something ironic is that Mr grouse- Burton Spiller, a man who made the 20 ga. famous for grouse hunting, said in one of his books that he had a dream gun on the drawing board—a 12 ga. You can argue all kinds of things, but you will have to go a long way to beat a 12 ga. for all around effectiveness and versatility. Can you hunt with something else? Sure you can. I just happen to be a life long fan of the 12 ga.

I don’t know much about the 3 inch 20 ga. load. It never made any sense to me. I know Michael McIntosh thought it was terrible for several reasons. (Pheasant Guns and Gunning) I will take his word for it.
_________________________
“If the man doesn’t believe as we do, we say he is a crank, and that settles it. I mean it does now days, because we can’t burn him.”—MT

Not at all. As for patterns, 92% 40 yard patterns are a reality with 20 gauge lead loads.

Next Randy will tell us we need to use ether a .458 Win mag or a .460 Wby mag to kill whitetail deer because the .458 Lott just can't do the job anymore.

You know, you MUST have a minimum of 3" shells for any game, you MUST wear camouflage to kill any duck, goose or turkey, and you MUST buy the gun Randy recommends, or you will not be able to enjoy your hunt.

Oddly enough, lots of pheasants are killed every year with 12, 16, 20, and 28 gauge guns shooting 2-3/4" shells. These guns aren't all patterned, they use fixed chokes, and yes, some of them actually kick. (I've heard of some birds being killed with .410s. Heresy, I know.) You wouldn't know that was possible after reading the posts on this forum, but it's true. Those poor ignorant souls keep killing birds even though it's barely possible. Remember them in your prayers.

Did you hit your head or something?

I've used a .270 Winchester for both moose and blue wildebeest.

I have read about everything you can possibly read on the subject of best turkey load. It was often said in articles, forum posts, podcasts, books, etc. that a 3" shell will often pattern better than a 3 1/2" shell. I think payload+pattern are the two things to consider.

After perusing this thread I am now amazed I have been able to kill anything with light or standard Loads in a 28, 12 or 16. gauge. I apparently need more “payload” for Pheasant. This year I will try the Ithaca 10 gauge with 1 3/4 number 2 for my Endeavors of quail and pheasant. If that fails I’ll have to find a new 20 bore or step up to the venerable 8 bore. Worst case is I will be in shape from lugging the 10 pound boat oar through the Mearns hills.

Oh and yes a 16 bore with 1 oz square loads and the proper shot will hammer wild pheasant just fine.

I used a 12 gauge for 45 years or so, and this is my first year with my new 20 ga. autoloader.
Took my first pheasant with it yesterday.
What I like most about the 20 so far is the light weight and thin profile. Feels like a feather compared to most of my 12 ga. guns. Comes to my shoulder quicker.
I shot yesterdays bird with 2 3/4" Remington XR 5 shot. Didn't land dead, but my dogs find 'em.
Bought some 3" 5 shot Prairie Storm shells from Federal. Randy hates them, says they pattern very poorly. I have had very good results with them in 12 ga., and we'll see how they work in the 20.

Much depends on the dog you run and your expected shot distances. With a good pointer, just take your 28 gage and shoot them as they basically flush at your feet (at least for me the few time I was guided before I got my own dogs). I now appreciate a light, aluminum 20 gage for pheasants with my British lab and with an ounce and a quarter #5 lead loads I feel like I don’t give up anything to the 12 gage and the 16 gage doesn’t have the same power as this. Doesn’t mean you can’t take them with a 16, but if the ole carries like a 20 and hits like a 12 appeals to you, why not carry a 20 gage and have the same load as a 12 gage? Recoil is a non issue in a gas auto at the velocities of a typical 3 inch 20 gage.

Neanderthal choke up a half step from your 12 and you should not be able to tell the difference. If you normally run a mod in 12 gage an improved mod in 20 will likely match the pattern percentage of your old load and choke combo. I run improved mod in my Tristar 20 gage and the birds are usually dead in the air. Light mod left them lively for my dog if you want “more training.” I typically shoot Fioanchi 3 in #5 1 1/4 ounce shells. It works so well I have not tried anything else.

I was out to South Dakota this last week with my New Sweet Sixteen and had no trouble shooting the longer wild birds at the farm. I do use #4 shot and took birds out further than I thought capable. I have also used a 16ga. Citron since the mid 80 and find it is very effective. I have similar success with the #4 shot in 2 3/4 20 gauge but really like the federal premium offerings for knockdown power. I did use the Remington Express Long Range going 1300 fps and they were also effective. I had not used them before because I questioned the quality of shot and the lack of buffer that is offered by federal. I do like the light A5 for all day carrying and the slimmer design. The 20 gauge is also a good gauge. I really can't stand to carry a twelve for the weight and bulk. Good Luck on your hunts

Gentlemen,

Randy likes 20 gauge gun, I own more than a few. I hunt everything from Quail to Pheasants with them. However I still like my 16 gauge L.C. Smith double guns even better than my 20's. No matter how much scientific proof there is about the 20 gauge, I kill more Grouse with my 16's and that is a fact.
The thread initiator was asking about the 16 gauge and pheasant hunting. I have killed more Lancaster County, Pa wild Pheasants with a 16 gauge L.C. Smith double gun than I ever did with a 20 gauge. Killed a lot with a 12 gauge Pigeon Grade L.C. Smith also. For most of history both the 20 & 28 were thought to be boys and ladies guns, however this is not to say they are inferior guns. Now when Mearns Quail hunting in AZ, I love my 20 and 28 gauge double guns.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

Now 12 gauge guns on 16 gauge frames are real hard to beat also. LeFever/Ithaca made a few real bird killers.

In all of my years of hunting wild birds here in Kansas, I have never seen anyone hunting with a 16 ga gun, not one. Probably 90% of the hunters use semi automatic 12 ga guns with stout heavy loads of #5 or 6 shot. Our birds often flush at distances that are on the limit of shotgun range especially following opening day. The remaining 10% are seen with semi automatic 3” 20 ga guns (including me) and I’ve never felt under gunned. With close flushing birds, I see nothing wrong with the 16 ga, but again I’ve never once seen one in the field.

If we'd have met circa 1968 you would have.

It was a Marlin Model 90 16 gauge, choked improved and modified. It HAD to work; it was all I had. I had it for decades before giving it back to its original owner so he'd have something to hunt with, and he promptly died on me. No idea where the gun went.

"High brass" factory shells worked just fine.

I've probably shot as many pheasants with an improved cylinder 2 3/4" Remington LT-20 as anything.

casonet,

I think you will find that this has to due with the era you grew up in and the birds you mostly hunted.
Because I grew up from the late 40's most of the men used 12 and 16 gauge breech loading or pump guns until the men from the WWII who wanted the semi-auto guns started hunting again. These men changed a lot of things in the sporting world. Out west as you indicated most of the men hunting Pheasants wanted a 12 gauge semi-auto gun, here in the east where Grouse hunting was king, the men still used their Father and Grandfathers guns, either breech loading or pump, unless they lived down round Lancaster County, Pa where the semi-auto guns were starting to become very popular. In the 60 and 70's most of the Pheasant hunters carried these 12 gauge guns. The Grouse hunters however still pretty much used their 12&16 gauge double guns, with some pumps mixed in. From the 70 thru modern times the 16 gauge gun faded quite a bit. Although Grouse hunters here in the east still used them, most were passed down thru the family, and used a great deal out of family hunting tradition.
It all depended on the birds or Ducks being hunted whether you saw the 16 gauge gun of not. In the mid west I grant you most people used the 12 gauge guns, especially with the old slow burning shells.
Here in the east Grouse and Woodcock hunters liked their 16 and 28 gauge guns, and we still see a lot of them.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man


1880's 16 gauge J.P. Sauer German Best side lock Grouse Gun, built on a 20 gauge frame. I use it every Grouse and Woodcock season. Along with my 16 gauge L.C. Smith double guns.

It's too bad Riflemeister hasn't posted in this thread, but he's busy out west hunting pheasants and other assorted birds with his arsenal of 16 gauge SxS guns.

Pine Creek, we are close to the same age.

casonet,


Got too admit I bumped into very few hunters over the years in Kansas, who carried a 16 gauge double gun, Ken Graft and I are two of the bird hunters who do however. Ken goes every year, I have not been back for some time however.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man


Nothing much tops a good 16 gauge L.C. Smith double gun.

Got to agree with you for sheer beauty, but it wouldn’t be my first choice for a Kansas hunt. My preference lends toward high tech and light weight gas autos

deleted double post

casonet,

Each to his own, we do a lot of teasing here in the Potter County, Pa Grouse woods about men using Semi-Auto Duck/Pheasant guns in our Grouse woods. Some of the guys here on the forum really get offended, not my intention however it is what it is.

We are a very traditional bunch of bird hunters here at the Pine Creek Grouse Camp, I still hunt with quite a few Hammer Guns, in fact I just purchased another old 16 gauge Crescent Hammer Gun, for the up coming Grouse and Woodcock season.

Pine Creek/Dave
Pine Creek Grouse Dog Trainers
RGS member sense 1962

Antique 16 gauge Crescent Hammer Gun, still works perfect after 100 years. Throws great patterns for Grouse hunting with the RST or Poly SpredR's at 25 - 40 yards. Can't wait to shoot a few Grouse and Woodcock with the old gun.