ShotGunWorld Shotguns

It is currently Sun Nov 29, 2020 9:16 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 122 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 7  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Your buckshot field experience
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 3:02 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2014 2:57 pm
Posts: 97
^agreed




Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Your buckshot field experience
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 3:24 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 10:39 pm
Posts: 4973
That is a comparison of best case in one and worst case in the other. They do not equate.

_________________
The root(s) of all evil:
-Political Correctness
-Insurance
-Securitization
Take your pick.

Always make an even number of mistakes. One may cancel out another.

"People who enjoy meetings should not be in charge of anything." --Thomas Sowell


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Your buckshot field experience
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 3:40 pm 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*

Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2005 7:25 pm
Posts: 9119
Location: Louisiana
Or, perhaps, open mind in one and closed mind in the other...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Your buckshot field experience
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 3:44 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 10:39 pm
Posts: 4973
lossking wrote:
Or, perhaps, open mind in one and closed mind in the other...
Gotta agree with you there!

_________________
The root(s) of all evil:
-Political Correctness
-Insurance
-Securitization
Take your pick.

Always make an even number of mistakes. One may cancel out another.

"People who enjoy meetings should not be in charge of anything." --Thomas Sowell


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Your buckshot field experience
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 4:38 pm 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*

Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2005 7:25 pm
Posts: 9119
Location: Louisiana
Zbigniew wrote:
lossking wrote:
Or, perhaps, open mind in one and closed mind in the other...
Gotta agree with you there!


Ha, ha! I suspect that you may have gotten it backwards, though. :wink:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Your buckshot field experience
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2016 9:07 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Sat May 14, 2016 10:18 am
Posts: 22
Ahhhhh!!!!! You guys just aren't getting it. I read some writings by Archibald Rutledge and consider him a person of high enough integrity as to believe what he wrote. He said ONE TIME he killed a deer at 100 yards with a single buckshot pellet. Okay- we can all agree that such a thing is a stunt and in today's world no ethical sportsman should take such a shot.
What I am trying to figure out is under normal situations what does it take to reliably kill a deer with buckshot. Now that may be an impossible task and if I tried to learn it myself I might spend years trying. The big problem, as I see it, is if you hit a deer with buckshot that runs off and is never found- then you have no way of really knowing why. If you are a rifleman and good enough to be able to call your shots and on a game animal you know you hit too far back, etc. Then you have a pretty good idea why the animal got away. It is totally different with buckshot because you have no idea of the position of the various pellets.
As I said, I've been working on this problem for some time, so far it SEEMS that if 3 00Buck penetrate both lungs then under most circumstances a deer will drop within about 40 yards. As others have pointed out, when you do the ballistics on a single 00 pellet at 40 yards I think it has 115 ft. lbs. of energy. The idea just one pellet can kill a deer- seems pretty far fetched. To further complicate matters some hunters are using dogs- a poorly hit deer can be chased by dogs, making it bleed out and recovered, etc. which would not happen if one did not have dogs.
So what am I trying to accomplish???
Right now I am sort of concluding that a 5 pellet hit into a vital area may be what is ethically needed to drop a deer so that it doesn't run more than 40 yards. Now if that is true the next step is to start testing loads to find out what gives the best pattern and then figure on that best load- at what distance you can consistently put five pellets into a pie plate. For example you try Winchester's new "XXX" or whatever. It patterns the best in your shotgun and at thirty yards a magnum with 12 pellets will 90% of the time put 5 or more pellets into a pie plate. With that knowledge in hand you can confidently shoot a deer at 30 yards and be reliably confident of a ethical harvest.
But what if the best you can get is a 12 pellet load that puts 9 pellets in a 30" circle and only 2 or 3 into a pie plate? Is that okay or is it too thin?
As I said, from some of my work so far the feed back I've gotten is at least three and preferably more, pellets into the lungs are needed to bleed out a deer so that it will drop in 40 yards or less. On the neck shots, you need that unusual shotgun that can put all the pellets into a small group- say all 9 (or 12 if magnum) into a pie plate consistently. Such a load in the neck will most likely cut the neck bone, arteries, etc.- drop the animal from the impact and quickly finish it.
I've tried getting this information from some of the locals where I have moved but as I said, they are sort of a closed mouthed group.
So...1. Whole load of buckshot into the neck or lungs- definitely works
2. A single through the lungs- bleeds so slow that deer usually escapes unless you have dogs to track it down???
3. THE GRAY AREA in between- that's what I'm trying to figure out.
Some of the jungles I am hunting with my 30-30, I am passing up a lot of shots because the underbrush will probably deflect the bullet or the deer is running and I don't feel comfortable taking the shot. I however kill a fair amount of doves and I'll pace off 50 yards on some of them so I can it a flying target with a shotgun and ought to be able to do the same on deer. I never have trouble hitting rabbits on the run with a shotgun. I think that in the jungles I hunt the answer is a shotgun and buckshot but I'm trying to establish this pellet count needed. That then determines what kind of pellet spread will work.
Hope I explained what I am trying to figure out and thanks to all for any help.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Your buckshot field experience
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2016 9:39 am 
Shotgun Expert
Shotgun Expert
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:02 am
Posts: 26779
Location: Plainfield, IL
Davems wrote:
Ahhhhh!!!!! You guys just aren't getting it.


No, Davems, you aren't quite getting it. This is a settled matter, the subject of several formal peer-reviewed studies. Buckshot is inferior to slugs out of a shotgun on deer at all ranges, resulting invariably in higher rates of crippling and wounding losses than slugs. That is not opinion, that is fact. There is zero advantage to using buckshot vs. a slug out of a shotgun: none, notta, zero, zip.

It is a wide-spread problem, for it has affected the beef industry: In 1999, the Market Cow and Bull Beef Quality Audit revealed that more than 10,000 head of non-fed slaughter cattle were condemned due to the presence of lead shot. In fact, the presence of buckshot/birdshot ranked third on the list of packer concerns. Only bruises and antibiotic residues ranked higher.

If you want to keep asking the same question until you get the answer that you want, have at it.

Archibald Rutledge was a poet, the first South Carolina poet laureate from 1934 to 1973. A poet laureate is a very long ways from a wounding ballistics expert. For that, look to Dr. Martin Fackler, not a poet.

Struggling to compare rabbit-hunting (or dove hunting) with deer-hunting is nonsensical. How many pellets are you blowing at a rabbit or a dove?

It has been a long time since WWI and trench warfare. "On 19 September 1918, the German government issued a diplomatic protest against the American use of shotguns, alleging that the shotgun was prohibited by the law of war," saying "it is especially forbidden to employ arms, projections, or materials calculated to cause unnecessary suffering" as defined in the 1907 Hague Convention on Land Warfare.

That wasn't sporting, it wasn't sport hunting and no one that I know wanted to eat Germans.

_________________
--Randy

http://randywakeman.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Your buckshot field experience
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2016 4:00 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2014 2:57 pm
Posts: 97
If most of your shots are going to be around 30 yards and you might be shooting at a running deer, use buckshot. It works great on deer. Where I hunt it is illegal to use dogs. So, we make two lines of guys, one sitting and the other howling like dogs to push the deer to the watchers and sometimes the deer go back and the doggers(guys pushing) will get shooting. I hunt on my grandads property which has been in the family for over 100 years, everyone we hunt with uses shotguns WITH BUCKSHOT except one or two of about fifteen. last year we got nine deer and only one was shot with a rifle and the other 8 with buckshot. There were even some years we would get 20 deer and the majority were shot WITH BUCKSHOT. So, if your shots are around 30yards and you might be shooting at running deer, use buckshot.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Your buckshot field experience
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2016 7:15 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 10:39 pm
Posts: 4973
If I needed a shotgun WITH BUCKSHOT to hit a running deer at 30 yards, I'd give up hunting altogether.

_________________
The root(s) of all evil:
-Political Correctness
-Insurance
-Securitization
Take your pick.

Always make an even number of mistakes. One may cancel out another.

"People who enjoy meetings should not be in charge of anything." --Thomas Sowell


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Your buckshot field experience
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2016 9:23 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2014 2:57 pm
Posts: 97
I never said anything about NEEDING a shotgun with buckshot to hit a running deer at 30 yards. I'm just saying there would be a higher chance at being successful when using that over a slug or rifle.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Your buckshot field experience
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2016 9:51 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 10:39 pm
Posts: 4973
Then why not use a rifle, if you don't need a shotgun to hit that running deer?

_________________
The root(s) of all evil:
-Political Correctness
-Insurance
-Securitization
Take your pick.

Always make an even number of mistakes. One may cancel out another.

"People who enjoy meetings should not be in charge of anything." --Thomas Sowell


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Your buckshot field experience
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2016 9:58 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2014 2:57 pm
Posts: 97
"I'm just saying there would be a higher chance at being successful when using that over a slug or rifle."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Your buckshot field experience
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2016 10:16 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2014 2:57 pm
Posts: 97
Also, if you wanted to shoot at a running deer with a rifle, it doesn't seem very ethical because you have one chance at killing it for each shot and there is a good chance you would just wound it. With buckshot you have 9, 12, 15 chances at killing the deer for each shot meaning there is a higher chance of hitting vital organs and a higher chance of actually killing it.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Your buckshot field experience
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2016 10:24 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2014 2:57 pm
Posts: 97
Randy, could you share some of your experience of using buckshot for deer hunting because all that you have said is that it isn't good and that you have hunted for a long time. Davems is asking for peoples experience not just "it's a poor choice" or "studies show it isn't good", he is asking for your personal experience.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Your buckshot field experience
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 5:06 am 
Shotgun Expert
Shotgun Expert
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:02 am
Posts: 26779
Location: Plainfield, IL
iloveguns wrote:
Where I hunt it is illegal to use dogs. So, we make two lines of guys, one sitting and the other howling like dogs to push the deer to the watchers and sometimes the deer go back and the doggers(guys pushing) will get shooting.




Grown-ups shouldn't embarrass themselves barking like dogs. It just "ain't right."

It is hard to blame the deer for running: it would make me consider running as well. Any God-fearing man or beast would be inclined to run away. Quickly.

Anyway, both driving deer and the use of buckshot is banned in many states, including Illinois. https://www.dnr.illinois.gov/hunting/Do ... System.pdf

I'm not one that supports much of any new hunting regulations. When it takes you longer to read the reg book than to clean your deer, it is absurd. Nevertheless, it isn't hard to understand why in the driving deer / buckshot debates, driving deer and use of buckshot comes out on the losing end.

In some areas where driving deer was allowed along with buckshot, roughly 30% of the deer harvested by bow hunters had buckshot embedded beneath their hides. Those, of course, were deer that survived, not the ones that eventually succumbed to a wound that wouldn't heal. It is wanton waste. After enough autopsies of deer with buckshot in them and carcasses of lost animals found gut-shot with buckshot, it is usually a very, very easy win for the no buckshot crowd, which does include the usual anti-hunting loons as well.

Yes, I've witnessed the very poor results of buckshot first-hand, from hunting in coastal Carolina and Minnesota. It wasn't pretty. It is a very contentious issue down South and one that won't be resolved here. Does anyone want me to actually thank the jerkwads that put buckshot into my deer that I later took with a clean, single shot via muzzleloading rifle? :?:

Certainly no one on Shotgun World wounds deer with buckshot, but some folks have and do. There is no debate in many areas: use of buckshot and driving deer is illegal. If someone doesn't like it, then they will have to take that up with the respective DNR's.

If you want to post on the "Big Game" forum and ask for opinions and information, don't be surprised when you get what you asked for. The Ghost of Jack O'Connor will smile, ask you to go sit on the cold rock, and and tell you that, in general, the most effective, ethical, and moral method for taking any Big Game animal that you have any respect for is by rifle. It is now 110 years since the introduction of the .30-06, so this shouldn't be news to anyone.

_________________
--Randy

http://randywakeman.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Your buckshot field experience
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 6:50 am 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*

Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2005 7:25 pm
Posts: 9119
Location: Louisiana
OK, this debate has settled it for me. I'm definitely using buckshot next season.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Your buckshot field experience
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 8:18 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 10:39 pm
Posts: 4973
Me, too!

That is, unless I can get my hands on a shoulder-fired Claymore mine instead.

_________________
The root(s) of all evil:
-Political Correctness
-Insurance
-Securitization
Take your pick.

Always make an even number of mistakes. One may cancel out another.

"People who enjoy meetings should not be in charge of anything." --Thomas Sowell


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Your buckshot field experience
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 10:11 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2014 2:57 pm
Posts: 97
Randy, the guys pushing the deer and barking like dogs don't embarrass themselves. There is also a reason we hunt like that. It makes deer hunting easier, not because we are lazy but most of the guys watching may not be able to go sit in a deer stand all day, so this gives them the opportunity to hunt deer without going over their physical limitations. When you get older, if you have problems with your legs and you still want to hunt deer, deer drives would be the best option for you. Also, you should take a look at "Bubba Rountree outdoors" channel on youtube, he has videos on reloading "extended range buckshot" and deer drives. here is a link.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4c3wBg0QI5I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuoIF7edkR4


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Your buckshot field experience
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 10:21 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Sat May 14, 2016 10:18 am
Posts: 22
Thanks ILOVEGUNS- hope you're still out there as you are the guy I need to talk with. Archibald Rutledge owned a plantation in South Carolina and he wrote several books on hunting and hundred of magazine articles. He killed over 250 bucks with a 16 gauge side by side using No. 1 buck. His grandfather signed the Declaration of Independence (or Constitution- I forget). In any event plenty of money to use any kind of firearm he wanted.
Unfortunately he wrote about the deer but not that much on the equipment. He said the hunter ought to wait for a deer to get within about 30 yards but he also shot some bucks at 70 yards and said the No.1 went through the shoulder and both lungs and either exited the far side or was lodged under the skin. In real life I shot a black bear that way up in Canada with a 30-30 and the bullet didn't expand as much as I thought it should and was under the hide on the far side- still dropped the bear after it ran 20 yards.
On all the deer you have seen killed with buckshot- now I realize there may be the odd deer that goes down with only one pellet but if you were to work in averages, how many pellets usually hit a deer that either drops on the site or doesn't run much over 50 yards? Some folks say you need at least 3 pellets through the lungs to get a deer to bleed out fast enough to not go over 50 yards. The guys with the neck shots- some tell me at 25 yards their particular shotgun puts the whole load so close together they can cover it with their hand- the neck shot at 25 yards just drops them.
Here is where I am trying to go with all this. If 3 pellets through the lungs does the job you have to give yourself some wiggle room. Let's say you find a shell that is a 12 gauge magnum with 15 No. 00 buck pellets and at 35 yards 6 of the 15 always hit a pie plate. Well then I have a high confidence level that is a good load as long as my shots are 35 yards or less. The last buck I killed was an 8 pt. with a 30-30 and I stepped off 37 yards. In Florida it was a long shot. I've had deer walk up about 10 feet (feet not yards) to me.
On the quick kill. Heavy cover, no snow, if you don't have a good blood trail and if the animal goes over 50 yards and then crawls under a palmetto- big hassle finding them.
So, please relate the field experience. What is getting me confused are the guys that say only a single pellet through both lungs is fine but as others have say the ballistics are extremely poor. Still- I also muzzle load and the round balls kill great even through the ballistics are poor. Ballistics are slanted to an equation favoring high velocity.
And, I appreciate your help. Buckshot is an area that it is difficult to discuss rationally. As I said, I've seen some YouTube videos of guys shooting hogs at far distances and a going away "through the Hams" angle and then complaining about buckshot not being any good. If they are taking a shot like that I doubt they ever pattern the loads or have any idea what they are doing, just blazing away. They could just as well be blazing away with a rifle.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Your buckshot field experience
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 10:35 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2014 2:57 pm
Posts: 97
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B37Jcm6BDJc
skip to 10 minutes, you can see the man in the tan jacket has trouble walking. He would probably have a tough time deer hunting on his own and in that deer drive, all he had to do was stand there and wait for the deer to run to him, that is why we hunt deer by doing drives.
Skip to 11:35 and you can see what buckshot can do to a deer and that looks like it could be 50-75 yards




Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 122 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 7  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Registered users: AJ-M12, Anatidae, azfred, bcraig, BigDeeeeeeee, bigeejakes, Bing [Bot], birdhunter39, birdshot8'S, Bushmaster1313, casonet, cbradford, cdbeagle, chairman, Curly N, D McMillen, Dbl Auto, dickgtax, doppelflinten, dragracer637, drcook, eyeonbird, Ezra Smack, fishrising, Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot], Husker90, ithacanut, Jaspo01, jeffreyk, Keperkey, krimmie, kyskeet, Lu 45, maggs01, Major146, Mark Pfeifer, Markepilot, marlin39, MartyFischer, mb94, McFarmer, Mike407, Mkk, MNTUNDRA, moonjeong, mpolans, mtchamber, NoDak Scotty, oldshotty, oldtechshooter, oneounceload, Passport, Rack-N-Roy, Ravenanme, replicant, RGuill96971, ric1911a1, RMc, Rooster booster, rsrocket1, skeetsit, smkilcz59, StanofKansas, Steeler [Crawler], tileman71, topcat 12g, Trout Hound, TRUKSTUFF, Turlington Tom, Twobarrels, wooden, zxcvbnm


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group    - DMCA Notice