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 Post subject: "Too Slow" - Grumpy Old Referee
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 10:12 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:30 pm
Posts: 26
I was shooting at the World Mini this weekend and had an interesting thing come up with the referee during a round.

We were right on pace for time, but after the third round while we're reloading and getting ready to go out for the last time, the grumpy old referee walks up and announces, "Guys we need to speed up. We're going too slow." And then he turns directly to me and points his finger at my chest and says, "And especially YOU!"

I was a little dumbfounded and asked, "How so?"

He replied, "You're just slow. You take too long. The rules say 20 seconds. You spend too much time thinking and dancing and not enough time shooting."

Now, I have developed a bit of a pre-shot routine to try and focus before each shot, but it definitely doesn't violate the 10 second rule and have never been accused of being "too slow".

So I told him "thanks for the advice" but inside I was PISSED. I had just gone straight and was in a zone and his calling me out completely flustered me. I ended up missing High 1 twice to start but then shot the next 23 to finish the round. Those two shots cost me a place in a shootoff for my class.

(I am quite proud of the way I got over it and got my focus back to finish strong, even if it cost me money)

So, not really a question as much as a need to vent. He could have just said, "Everyone needs to speed up" and left it at that, or he could have waited until after the round was done to criticize my routine or he could have said something sooner before we were three boxes in.

No matter what, the way he did it was totally inappropriate and it pisses me off just thinking about it.

FWIW, our squad ended up finishing in around 85 minutes, so we weren't that slow, even if we weren't quite at the 80 minute standard. The squad after us started right on time.




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 Post subject: Re: "Too Slow" - Grumpy Old Referee
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 10:52 pm 
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Did someone pay him off to piss you off? (A rhetorical question.)
Good on ya to finish strong after that. I wouldn't have been as kind or courteous, ref be damned.

tp

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 Post subject: "Too Slow" - Grumpy Old Referee
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 11:07 pm 
Crown Grade
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Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 4:08 pm
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Crimson_Guy wrote:
I was shooting at the World Mini this weekend and had an interesting thing come up with the referee during a round.

We were right on pace for time, but after the third round while we're reloading and getting ready to go out for the last time, the grumpy old referee walks up and announces, "Guys we need to speed up. We're going too slow." And then he turns directly to me and points his finger at my chest and says, "And especially YOU!"

I was a little dumbfounded and asked, "How so?"

He replied, "You're just slow. You take too long. The rules say 20 seconds. You spend too much time thinking and dancing and not enough time shooting."

Now, I have developed a bit of a pre-shot routine to try and focus before each shot, but it definitely doesn't violate the 10 second rule and have never been accused of being "too slow".

So I told him "thanks for the advice" but inside I was PISSED. I had just gone straight and was in a zone and his calling me out completely flustered me. I ended up missing High 1 twice to start but then shot the next 23 to finish the round. Those two shots cost me a place in a shootoff for my class.

(I am quite proud of the way I got over it and got my focus back to finish strong, even if it cost me money)

So, not really a question as much as a need to vent. He could have just said, "Everyone needs to speed up" and left it at that, or he could have waited until after the round was done to criticize my routine or he could have said something sooner before we were three boxes in.

No matter what, the way he did it was totally inappropriate and it pisses me off just thinking about it.

FWIW, our squad ended up finishing in around 85 minutes, so we weren't that slow, even if we weren't quite at the 80 minute standard. The squad after us started right on time.


85 minutes is too slow at the Worlds. Did it occur to you that he was correct?


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 Post subject: Re: "Too Slow" - Grumpy Old Referee
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 11:26 pm 
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Crimson_Guy wrote:
I was shooting at the World Mini this weekend and had an interesting thing come up with the referee during a round.

We were right on pace for time, but after the third round while we're reloading and getting ready to go out for the last time, the grumpy old referee walks up and announces, "Guys we need to speed up. We're going too slow." And then he turns directly to me and points his finger at my chest and says, "And especially YOU!"

I was a little dumbfounded and asked, "How so?"

He replied, "You're just slow. You take too long. The rules say 20 seconds. You spend too much time thinking and dancing and not enough time shooting."

Now, I have developed a bit of a pre-shot routine to try and focus before each shot, but it definitely doesn't violate the 10 second rule and have never been accused of being "too slow".

So I told him "thanks for the advice" but inside I was PISSED. I had just gone straight and was in a zone and his calling me out completely flustered me. I ended up missing High 1 twice to start but then shot the next 23 to finish the round. Those two shots cost me a place in a shootoff for my class.

(I am quite proud of the way I got over it and got my focus back to finish strong, even if it cost me money)

So, not really a question as much as a need to vent. He could have just said, "Everyone needs to speed up" and left it at that, or he could have waited until after the round was done to criticize my routine or he could have said something sooner before we were three boxes in.

No matter what, the way he did it was totally inappropriate and it pisses me off just thinking about it.

FWIW, our squad ended up finishing in around 85 minutes, so we weren't that slow, even if we weren't quite at the 80 minute standard. The squad after us started right on time.


FWIW, preshot routine happens before you step on the station. Once you're there, you should be loading the gun, shouldering the gun, and calling for the target. 10 seconds per call is actually a REALLY long time in practice, if you're exceeding that you're probably doing something wrong.

Shooters have 10 seconds per call, so 30 seconds on 1, 2, 6, 7, and 20 seconds on 3, 4, 5, 8 plus an extra 10 for an option somewhere, plus the actual time from calling to shooting the target, tack on another second per target for safety. That means you can essentially take 71.666 minutes to shoot 100 targets as a 5 man squad and everyone still be perfectly within the 10 second rule. This only leaves you 8.333 minutes to accommodate changing stations 32 times (you can eliminate the time waste between rounds by going 8-to-1). So everyone can be perfectly in compliance with the 10 second rule, and still considerably exceed a 1hr 20m flight time. Either the 1hr20m time limit should be raised, or the 10 second limit should be lowered. The problem is the former is enforceable, the latter really isn't, at least without maybe mandating loading 2 shells for singles.

Sounds like the ref could have been a little more congenial though. Might be worth dropping a note with the field and time to NSSA and let them know their employee is alienating potential customers.

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 Post subject: Re: "Too Slow" - Grumpy Old Referee
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 12:03 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:02 pm
Posts: 191
Skeet_Man wrote:
Shooters have 10 seconds per call, so 30 seconds on 1, 2, 6, 7, and 20 seconds on 3, 4, 5, 8 plus an extra 10 for an option somewhere, plus the actual time from calling to shooting the target, tack on another second per target for safety.


Actually the Rulebook doesn't say that.


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 Post subject: Re: "Too Slow" - Grumpy Old Referee
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 12:06 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:02 pm
Posts: 191
80 minutes squads may not be achievable if NSSA is serious about this -

Squads will be asked to maintain social distancing in the field, i.e., 6 feet between shooters waiting their turn to shoot.


http://mynssa.nssa-nsca.org/2020/08/29/ ... pionships/


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 Post subject: Re: "Too Slow" - Grumpy Old Referee
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 12:09 am 
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J.Fred_Muggs wrote:
Skeet_Man wrote:
Shooters have 10 seconds per call, so 30 seconds on 1, 2, 6, 7, and 20 seconds on 3, 4, 5, 8 plus an extra 10 for an option somewhere, plus the actual time from calling to shooting the target, tack on another second per target for safety.


Actually the Rulebook doesn't say that.


"When a shooter steps onto
a station and more than 10 seconds elapse before his/
her call, it shall be considered a time balk. However, a
time balk will not be called unless the shooter's repeated
delays directly contribute to the round exceeding the
20-minute-per-round allowance, inclusive of breaks
between rounds (see III-B-7). The referee may warn the
shooter once each round without penalty"

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S3 Smingler Shotgun Sports
Ian Smingler
585-613-8098
[email protected]
http://www.sminglershotgunsports.webs.com

Manufacturer of Custom Brass Barrel Weights for over/under, top single, and unsingle shotguns.


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 Post subject: Re: "Too Slow" - Grumpy Old Referee
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 12:11 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:02 pm
Posts: 191
FWIW - If a shooter is single loading and saving empties, he cannot shoot his first target, open the gun and retrieve his empty, drop it in his empties pouch or pocket, retrieve a loaded shell, load his gun, close the action, mount, assume his hold-point and look-point, and call for the target in 10 seconds.


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 Post subject: Re: "Too Slow" - Grumpy Old Referee
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 6:41 am 
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I am pretty new at being a certified Referee, but I do see the frustrations that other squad members have when shooting with someone who has an overly long pre-shot set up once on the station. I agree that calling you out right before you were going to be shooting again, was not in good form.

Bob

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 Post subject: Re: "Too Slow" - Grumpy Old Referee
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:00 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:30 pm
Posts: 26
Appreciate the replies.

None of the other guys in the squad thought I was too slow - and no one has ever told me before that I am slow - and they all thought it was bad form to call it out like he did.

I load two shells at a time and still go faster than shooters who load one shell at a time.

Don't deny that I take my time to try to be consistent and avoid rushing, but I'm not freaking Bernhard Langer, either. (to apply a golf analogy)


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 Post subject: Re: "Too Slow" - Grumpy Old Referee
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:52 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:02 pm
Posts: 191
Skeet_Man wrote:

"When a shooter steps onto
a station and more than 10 seconds elapse before his/
her call, it shall be considered a time balk. However, a
time balk will not be called unless the shooter's repeated
delays directly contribute to the round exceeding the
20-minute-per-round allowance, inclusive of breaks
between rounds (see III-B-7). The referee may warn the
shooter once each round without penalty"


Note the rule does not address the time between shooting the high target and shooting the low target. Nor does it address the time between shooting the low single and shooting doubles.


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 Post subject: Re: "Too Slow" - Grumpy Old Referee
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:10 am 
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J.Fred_Muggs wrote:
FWIW - If a shooter is single loading and saving empties, he cannot shoot his first target, open the gun and retrieve his empty, drop it in his empties pouch or pocket, retrieve a loaded shell, load his gun, close the action, mount, assume his hold-point and look-point, and call for the target in 10 seconds.


Watch me. It can be done.

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Ian Smingler
585-613-8098
[email protected]
http://www.sminglershotgunsports.webs.com

Manufacturer of Custom Brass Barrel Weights for over/under, top single, and unsingle shotguns.


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 Post subject: Re: "Too Slow" - Grumpy Old Referee
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:11 am 
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Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 4:08 pm
Posts: 2593
Crimson_Guy wrote:
Appreciate the replies.

None of the other guys in the squad thought I was too slow - and no one has ever told me before that I am slow - and they all thought it was bad form to call it out like he did.

I load two shells at a time and still go faster than shooters who load one shell at a time.

Don't deny that I take my time to try to be consistent and avoid rushing, but I'm not freaking Bernhard Langer, either. (to apply a golf analogy)


Obviously the ref could have been more polite, but your squad took 85 minutes to shoot their round when the 80 minute time is in place. Your squad was too slow, period. No need to make excuses. The time limit is there for a reason.

I would never be a skeet ref. Enforce the rules and shooters get mad.


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 Post subject: Re: "Too Slow" - Grumpy Old Referee
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:12 am 
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J.Fred_Muggs wrote:
Skeet_Man wrote:

"When a shooter steps onto
a station and more than 10 seconds elapse before his/
her call, it shall be considered a time balk. However, a
time balk will not be called unless the shooter's repeated
delays directly contribute to the round exceeding the
20-minute-per-round allowance, inclusive of breaks
between rounds (see III-B-7). The referee may warn the
shooter once each round without penalty"


Note the rule does not address the time between shooting the high target and shooting the low target. Nor does it address the time between shooting the low single and shooting doubles.


I guess I'm taking a leap of faith that the "spirit" of the rules indicate 10 seconds per call between the end of one shot and the call for the next. I doubt they mean to say when you step on high one you have 10 seconds to call for the high house but you can take 60 seconds to call for the low. Likely a housekeeping issue that could stand cleaning up in the verbage.

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585-613-8098
[email protected]
http://www.sminglershotgunsports.webs.com

Manufacturer of Custom Brass Barrel Weights for over/under, top single, and unsingle shotguns.


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 Post subject: Re: "Too Slow" - Grumpy Old Referee
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:31 am 
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Location: Mormon Mecca
Crimson_Guy,

The referee was spot on in his determination that your squad was too slow. You admit that your squad exceeded the 80-minute standard which is in place for a reason. This is, after all, the Worlds. Hundreds of folks to manage and lots of scheduling to accommodate in a timely manner. However, based solely on YOUR description of the interchange, the referees' people skills suck. IF your description of the referees demeaner is accurate, you SHOULD bring it to the attention of management.

I'll leave you with this thought. I took my first clinic from John Shima and one of the things he told our group that I have never forgotten is this: "Take the referee out of your game!" By your own admission, you didn't do that. You let him in and it possibly cost you 2 targets. The blame for the lost targets is squarely on YOUR shoulders; not the referees. IMHO!

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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 4:02 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:02 pm
Posts: 191
drawdc wrote:
The time limit is there for a reason.


They have 90 minute flights at the World Shoot. What was the reason for an 80 minute time limit?


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 6:01 pm 
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J.Fred_Muggs wrote:
drawdc wrote:
The time limit is there for a reason.
They have 90 minute flights at the World Shoot. What was the reason for an 80 minute time limit?
Oh, I don't know, maybe the finishing squad might need a minute or two to check/verify their scores and gather their gear before leaving the field, new squad might need a couple minutes to observe & verify or adjust the targets before starting the event, and the referee might need a couple minutes for a bathroom break before starting the next squad. All that will eat up those extra ten minutes quick.

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I’m 78 years young and going as hard as I can for as long as I can.
“Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don’t mind.”
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 Post subject: Re: "Too Slow" - Grumpy Old Referee
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 6:42 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:47 pm
Posts: 47
Crimson_Guy wrote:

He replied, "You're just slow. You take too long. The rules say 20 seconds. You spend too much time thinking and dancing and not enough time shooting."

.
:lol: Man, that went from zero to a hundred pretty quick if that’s the whole story. Maybe your squad mates were indicating frustration behind your back.


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 Post subject: Re: "Too Slow" - Grumpy Old Referee
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 6:48 pm 
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J.Fred_Muggs wrote:
drawdc wrote:
The time limit is there for a reason.


They have 90 minute flights at the World Shoot. What was the reason for an 80 minute time limit?


When was the last time you shot the Worlds?


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 Post subject: Re: "Too Slow" - Grumpy Old Referee
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:23 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:14 am
Posts: 142
I am not a tournament shooter, but presumably such a person knows all the rules and has a respect for them and the game. So, the obvious question is: have you EVER been called on this before? If not, then as has been suggested, perhaps one of your squad mates complained behind your back. You are perhaps the last person to acknowledge: "You spend too much time thinking and dancing and not enough time shooting." so if you really want to know, ask one of the shooters at your club. Obviously the ref should not have singled you out in such a manner, but, if you know his name, now that the event is over and the dust is settling, perhaps you can seek him out and ask him? He might acknowledge the validity of your point, or he might be more specific. Is that possible?
Peter




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