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 Post subject: How is this scored?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:08 pm 
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Shooter calls for a pair on station 2, misses the high bird, breaks the low bird with the first shot. Debris from that target breaks the high bird.

I was refereeing our club's Skeet League last week, and ruled the high bird a miss and the low bird unestablished.

By the time the squad finished on 2 and midway through 3, one of the squad challenges that decision and says there's a "new rule" that states the referee must be able to follow the unbroken missed target all the way to the ground. Since the debris from the other target broke the high it should be considered unestablished as well.

It's a relatively informal league, so we backed up and I let the guy reshoot (and he missed, so justice was served).

So what's the skinny on this? Was the challenger correct?




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 Post subject: Re: How is this scored?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2020 4:23 pm 
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On many stations the referee cannot watch the target all the way to the ground. On those stations the target is hidden from view of the referee by one of the skeet houses.

How can you watch the target all the way to the ground if it is the first target of a double?

On a Dutched pair, which target are you watching all the way to the ground?


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 Post subject: Re: How is this scored?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2020 4:25 pm 
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My understanding of the new rules is that is now a proof double to establish high house.

I think its ridiculous, but-


ETA: There was a lot of discussion here on this a while back when the rule was proposed. I'm not seeing it in the rule book though. Anyone know where its at?

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 Post subject: Re: How is this scored?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:53 pm 
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The new rule that is being referred to is actually about a year old now.
The rule book currently reads:
III-E-2:
2. If a double is thrown but the targets collide, it shall be declared no bird, and the result of a proof double shall determine the score of both shots.

-A practical explanation of that new rule is; if you shoot at the first target of a pair, and it doesn’t appear as if that first target was hit at all, and yet the targets go onto collide. Ruling is ‘Nothing established, repeat pair to determine the results of both targets’.


In the example given within the original post; the shooter was so far off on his first shot that he actually hit the wrong target. After hitting the wrong target, fragments of that wrong target go onto hit the first target. The question is, does the rule from above apply? Does he get a complete redo with no penalty?

Rule III-E-5:
If the shooter is deprived of a normal second shot for any of the following reasons
(the rule goes on to list reason (a) through (h)), the result of the first shot shall be scored even if an apparent gun malfunction may have occurred on the second shot, and the second target only shall be declared no bird and a proof double shall be fired to determine the result of the second shot.
(f): The wrong target is broken with the first shot.


I'd argue that from Rule III-E-5 the result of the first shot shall be scored and those results were a MISS, so scored as a Loss. In my mind, the second rule (III-E-5) has more precedence and over rules the first (III-E-2). Why? Because missing so badly as to hit the second target, is egregious enough that it is specifically mentioned in the separate rule. Because of that, the ruling of 'first target established lost, repeat the pair to determine the results of the second' is appropriate. But that is just my opinion, in today's society everyone seems to deserves a trophy...


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 Post subject: Re: How is this scored?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2020 8:46 pm 
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CobraKhan wrote:
The new rule that is being referred to is actually about a year old now.
The rule book currently reads:
III-E-2:
2. If a double is thrown but the targets collide, it shall be declared no bird, and the result of a proof double shall determine the score of both shots.

-A practical explanation of that new rule is; if you shoot at the first target of a pair, and it doesn’t appear as if that first target was hit at all, and yet the targets go onto collide. Ruling is ‘Nothing established, repeat pair to determine the results of both targets’.


In the example given within the original post; the shooter was so far off on his first shot that he actually hit the wrong target. After hitting the wrong target, fragments of that wrong target go onto hit the first target. The question is, does the rule from above apply? Does he get a complete redo with no penalty?

Rule III-E-5:
If the shooter is deprived of a normal second shot for any of the following reasons
(the rule goes on to list reason (a) through (h)), the result of the first shot shall be scored even if an apparent gun malfunction may have occurred on the second shot, and the second target only shall be declared no bird and a proof double shall be fired to determine the result of the second shot.
(f): The wrong target is broken with the first shot.


I'd argue that from Rule III-E-5 the result of the first shot shall be scored and those results were a MISS, so scored as a Loss. In my mind, the second rule (III-E-5) has more precedence and over rules the first (III-E-2). Why? Because missing so badly as to hit the second target, is egregious enough that it is specifically mentioned in the separate rule. Because of that, the ruling of 'first target established lost, repeat the pair to determine the results of the second' is appropriate. But that is just my opinion, in today's society everyone seems to deserves a trophy...


*Playing Devils Advocate

What if this was right at the center stake? (Which I imagine it was)... we have all seen both targets broken by a single shot...sooo... who is to say that it was ONLY the pieces of the low house target that broke the high house, and not some of his pellets? While it may have appeared that way to the referee... I think this is exactly the reason the rule was probably changed... it gives the benefit of the doubt to the shooter (which I feel like it should). This person must have broken the low house BEFORE it crossed the high house, which to me means it must have been awefully close to center... his shot couldn't have been THAT far off?

Honestly, while you as the referee may say that he was vindicated by the competitor then missing the high house again... There's also the thought that by allowing the group to move on, have to make a challenge, then go back and reshoot a pair... That this could be added stress on the shooter instead of the referee saying "Proof doubles nothing established" (less drama, less stress on the shooter).

Again, playing devils advocate because theres always two sides to the story... but it is very plausible that there is some truth to the shooters side of it.

I think that III-E-5 of shooting the wrong target first, would mainly apply to shooting the wrong target AFTER the crossing point (late) in my experience.


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 Post subject: Re: How is this scored?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2020 11:47 am 
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Here is the very first paragraph of this thread
Shoot2reload wrote:
Shooter calls for a pair on station 2, misses the high bird, breaks the low bird with the first shot. Debris from that target breaks the high bird.

For argument purposes you are changing the facts; he didn’t say that both targets were broken with the first shot. Based upon your imagined scenario(s), you are right. There are rules for those scenarios; the first target is hit and fragments break the second, thus the first target is established dead. There is also a rule for the targets being hit simultaneously with the first shot. But this thread isn’t those scenarios.


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 Post subject: Re: How is this scored?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2020 11:58 am 
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bigeejakes wrote:
...sooo... who is to say that it was ONLY the pieces of the low house target that broke the high house, and not some of his pellets? While it may have appeared that way to the referee... I think this is exactly the reason the rule was probably changed... it gives the benefit of the doubt to the shooter (which I feel like it should). This person must have broken the low house BEFORE it crossed the high house, which to me means it must have been awefully close to center... his shot couldn't have been THAT far off?

Here is another rule! “The referee shall be the SOLE judge of decision of fact. For example, his/her decision as to whether a target is dead or lost shall be irrevocable, regardless of the opinion of spectators or other members of the squad.”

The very first skeet field was constructed in 1915. Gertrude named the game ‘skeet’ in like 1924 and there was a National Championship in 1926. Doing the math, the game has been around and shot competitively for about a hundred years now! In all of those 100-years (or up through the 'new rule change' established last year), the field referee has watched the targets and has made judgement calls on whether they were hit or missed. Go ahead and argue dates and call it 95 years if you must; the point is, the field referee has been the SOLE judge of decision of fact for a very long time.

NSSA Skeet is a game of perfection, so much so that it would (will) suffer if we start giving shooters the ‘benefit of the doubt’ on targets that the referee does not see as being hit. This game would (will) not be better if everyone gets a few free-bees along the way with the idea that it all will work out equitably in the end. It is a game of perfection, the scoring needs to be as consistent, and as accurate as possible. For the past century, we have left it up to the field ref to make a judgement call. Sometimes that judgement call is beneficial to the shooter, sometimes it is not. If a guy shoots and the referee doesn’t see a piece come off, he should be scoring that as a loss.


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 Post subject: Re: How is this scored?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2020 12:13 pm 
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CobraKhan wrote:
bigeejakes wrote:
...sooo... who is to say that it was ONLY the pieces of the low house target that broke the high house, and not some of his pellets? While it may have appeared that way to the referee... I think this is exactly the reason the rule was probably changed... it gives the benefit of the doubt to the shooter (which I feel like it should). This person must have broken the low house BEFORE it crossed the high house, which to me means it must have been awefully close to center... his shot couldn't have been THAT far off?

Here is another rule! “The referee shall be the SOLE judge of decision of fact. For example, his/her decision as to whether a target is dead or lost shall be irrevocable, regardless of the opinion of spectators or other members of the squad.”

The very first skeet field was constructed in 1915. Gertrude named the game ‘skeet’ in like 1924 and there was a National Championship in 1926. Doing the math, the game has been around and shot competitively for about a hundred years now! In all of those 100-years (or up through the 'new rule change' established last year), the field referee has watched the targets and has made judgement calls on whether they were hit or missed. Go ahead and argue dates and call it 95 years if you must; the point is, the field referee has been the SOLE judge of decision of fact for a very long time.

NSSA Skeet is a game of perfection, so much so that it would (will) suffer if we start giving shooters the ‘benefit of the doubt’ on targets that the referee does not see as being hit. This game would (will) not be better if everyone gets a few free-bees along the way with the idea that it all will work out equitably in the end. It is a game of perfection, the scoring needs to be as consistent, and as accurate as possible. For the past century, we have left it up to the field ref to make a judgement call. Sometimes that judgement call is beneficial to the shooter, sometimes it is not. If a guy shoots and the referee doesn’t see a piece come off, he should be scoring that as a loss.


I agree and its just like any other organized sport. There is some form of an official and he/she or multiple of them are in charge of enforcing the sports rules and making judgment calls based on what they see. It could be wrong it could right but ultimately its the officials call and that is the final outcome. We have all seen the "questionable" football call but guess what once that final call is made it is what it is and there is nothing you can do about it except play on.


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 Post subject: Re: How is this scored?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2020 12:16 pm 
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IAW the rules, the referee is the SOLE judge of what happened. In your judgement you stated he fired the first shot and broke the wrong target first. Doesn't matter what happened after that. The call should have been first bird lost, proof doubles to establish the score on the second bird only. Watching the target all the way to the ground is bovine excrement and NOT in the rules. What IS in the rules is this: "A target from which, in the sole judgment of the referee, a visible piece is observed before the target hits the ground as a result of having been legally fired upon." That rules does NOT require the target to be watched all the way to the ground; only that it shall be declared a 'dead target' if observed breaking before hitting the ground. That's MY story and I'm sticking to it. :D

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 Post subject: Re: How is this scored?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2020 12:30 pm 
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Also I know were talking about NSSA rulings however just for reference from my days of shooting ISSF skeet I flipped through the rule book just to verify and this is what it says:

9.10.9 Additional “LOST” Target Rule Applying to Doubles
c) An athlete misses the first target of the double and accidentally hits the
second target with the same shot; the first target shall be declared “LOST”
and the double repeated to determine the result of the second shot only. The
athlete must always shoot at both targets in the repeated double(s);


Also here are the other ruling regarding "proof doubles":

9.10.6.3 Additional “NO TARGET” Rules applying to Doubles
Both targets must be declared “NO TARGET” and a repeat Double thrown, to
determine the result of both shots when:
a) Either target is irregular (see note);
b) A single target is thrown in doubles;
c) The first shot breaks both targets (an athlete is permitted only two (2) attempts
on any one station, if the same situation occurs for the third time the first target
must be declared a “HIT” and the second “LOST”);
d) Fragments from the first target break the second target;
e) The targets collide;
f) The athlete suffers an allowable malfunction of gun or cartridge and is unable
to fire the first shot; or
g) Both shots are fired simultaneously.
Note: Unless the Referee calls “NO TARGET(s)” before or immediately after the
athlete fires, no claim for an irregular target or targets must be permitted if either
target was fired upon, when the irregularity claim is based solely upon an alleged
“Quick Pull,” an alleged “Slow Pull” or a deviation from the prescribed lines of
flight. Otherwise if the athlete fires the result(s) must be recorded.


Last edited by dmarsh on Tue Dec 08, 2020 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: How is this scored?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2020 12:32 pm 
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The more convoluted you make the rules, the less people you will find that are interested in being refs...

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 Post subject: Re: How is this scored?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2020 1:21 pm 
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dmarsh wrote:
Note: Unless the Referee calls “NO TARGET(s)” before or immediately after the
athlete fires, no claim for an irregular target or targets must be permitted


"or immediately after"? Those words are used in the Rulebook? Where?


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 Post subject: Re: How is this scored?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2020 1:28 pm 
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J.Fred_Muggs wrote:
dmarsh wrote:
Note: Unless the Referee calls “NO TARGET(s)” before or immediately after the
athlete fires, no claim for an irregular target or targets must be permitted


"or immediately after"? Those words are used in the Rulebook? Where?


Please note I was quoting an ISSF rule not NSSA rules. I was just posting this for reference just to show the rulings about the situation described by the original question.

You can find the above words in the the ISSF shotgun rules that are listed on the ISSF website. https://www.issf-sports.org/theissf/rules_and_regulations/shotgun_rules.ashx


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 Post subject: Re: How is this scored?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2020 4:11 pm 
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CobraKhan wrote:
Here is the very first paragraph of this thread
Shoot2reload wrote:
Shooter calls for a pair on station 2, misses the high bird, breaks the low bird with the first shot. Debris from that target breaks the high bird.

For argument purposes you are changing the facts; he didn’t say that both targets were broken with the first shot. Based upon your imagined scenario(s), you are right. There are rules for those scenarios; the first target is hit and fragments break the second, thus the first target is established dead. There is also a rule for the targets being hit simultaneously with the first shot. But this thread isn’t those scenarios.


I actually agree with BiggeeJakes on this one, you are making an assumption that the shooter was way off on the first shot. The OP didn't state that. There is a spot at center field where the targets cross, and you can hit the wrong bird, or both birds, without being too far off the first bird.

In fact, in a perfect world with perfect targets, any target broken directly over the stake would break both birds.

Most experienced shooters are breaking high 2 and Low 6 well before the stake.


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 Post subject: Re: How is this scored?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:05 am 
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Thank you everybody for your responses on this! I feel like I should clarify a few things:

1. The shooter *missed* the high target. As to who is qualified to make that decision, I feel like *I* was...I mean, after all, isn't that my job? There were seven pairs of eyes, and nobody (including the challenger) made any claim that the target was hit by anything but fragments from the low.
2. Does it matter whether it was a *near* miss versus a blatant one?
3. When I said justice was served, that was a snide comment because I felt like I was being played. Like I said, it's an informal league, so I wasn't about to make a big scene, and I'm friends with many on the squad.
4. As to the 'extra stress on the shooter' thing, the challenge didn't arise until the next station. Even if I misunderstood the rules, I don't see how that could have been helped?

Clearly I'm guilty of confirmation bias on this one...but you guys have definitely given me a lot to chew on! :D


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 Post subject: Re: How is this scored?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:25 pm 
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I have seen a shooter miss the first target then it collided with second target not allowing a shot at second bird. Ruling is nothing established reshoot the pair since first target was unable to fly to the stake. Confirmed by nssa.


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 Post subject: Re: How is this scored?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2020 5:26 pm 
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I think the original call was correct. Everything that happened and was said after that sounds wrong to me, rules wise. But...I guess an informal skeet league is just that, informal. No worries. Shooters like a good argument.


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 Post subject: Re: How is this scored?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2020 7:32 pm 
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I have kind of been following this thread as it descended deeper and deeper into the weeds.
It is said General Pershing had a sign over his desk that read, “A regulation is not an excuse to be stupid”.
Common sense would seem to dictate the first bird was dead. Shoot another pair to establish the second target. Or is that too simple?

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 Post subject: Re: How is this scored?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2020 9:34 pm 
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sneem2 wrote:
Common sense would seem to dictate the first bird was dead.


:?:


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 Post subject: Re: How is this scored?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 6:47 am 
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Following the first scenario: The first bird is LOST. If it was fired upon, and missed, it's lost. No, ifs, ands or buts, it's LOST. Proof doubles to establish the second bird. Skeet is not sporting clays, frags do not count. If someone does not like NSSA rules, don't shoot NSSA, registered targets. Now, when shooting the proof double, you must fire at, BOTH, targets. If you miss the first bird, again, no worries, its already lost. However, if you hit the first bird and miss the second bird, both targets are lost.

If the first lost high bird was the first miss, an option "High" is thrown as a single.



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