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 Post subject: Re: How is this scored?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:28 am 
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Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2007 8:42 am
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jwbducks wrote:
I have seen a shooter miss the first target then it collided with second target not allowing a shot at second bird. Ruling is nothing established reshoot the pair since first target was unable to fly to the stake. Confirmed by nssa.
This is correct. That is the ‘new rule’, III-E-2, implemented last winter. In attempting a pair, if you shoot at and apparently miss the first target, then get lucky enough that have the targets collide at midfield, it is a complete redo as if it never occurred.

However there is an additional twist to the situation that the OP presented.




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 Post subject: Re: How is this scored?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:31 am 
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oldskeetshooter wrote:
Following the first scenario: The first bird is LOST. If it was fired upon, and missed, it's lost. No, ifs, ands or buts, it's LOST. Proof doubles to establish the second bird. Skeet is not sporting clays, frags do not count. If someone does not like NSSA rules, don't shoot NSSA, registered targets. Now, when shooting the proof double, you must fire at, BOTH, targets. If you miss the first bird, again, no worries, its already lost. However, if you hit the first bird and miss the second bird, both targets are lost.

If the first lost high bird was the first miss, an option "High" is thrown as a single.
Agreed, given the first scenario, and believing all of the details of what the OP indicated happened, the first target should be scored: established lost on the high house.


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 Post subject: Re: How is this scored?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:39 am 
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Apologies if I was abrupt in previous posts, I don’t intend to be a D-Bag. Sometimes in typing a reply things just come out different then intended.

In the situation that the OP describes, we have conflicting rules. So which rule has precedence?

First: the shooter shot at and missed the first target, and also the two targets collided. Does the new rule implemented last winter, III-E-2, prevail? Should the shooter get a complete Mulligan with no penalties?

Second: the shooter shot/hit the second target out of turn. There is a rule, III-E-5(f), which dictates a one target penalty for that – first bird established lost. It could further be argued that the targets (as in whole targets) did not collide. It was fragments of the second target, which was shot out of turn, that collided with the first.

So which rule prevails?


Last edited by CobraKhan on Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: How is this scored?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 1:54 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:02 pm
Posts: 349
Since rule changes are no longer announced in the association magazine, how are members to know about them?


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 Post subject: Re: How is this scored?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:43 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2007 8:42 am
Posts: 749
Well, unfortunately that is probably the situation for many and should be rectified. But comments from me on that one would definately take this thread off topic.


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 Post subject: Re: How is this scored?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:28 pm 
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What some fail to realize is that under the new rule, a target CANNOT be declared lost UNTIL it hits the ground. Nothing covers what happens in an instance were both targets are lost so watching both is impossible, or if the target is not viable by the ref when it hits the ground.

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Manufacturer of Custom Brass Barrel Weights for over/under, top single, and unsingle shotguns.


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 Post subject: Re: How is this scored?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:51 pm 
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wrote:
a target CANNOT be declared lost UNTIL it hits the ground.


So what does a referee do when a two-barrel loader calls for his low-house target before the referee can watch an apparent high house miss until it hits the ground?


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 Post subject: Re: How is this scored?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 4:40 pm 
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Skeet_Man wrote:
What some fail to realize is that under the new rule, a target CANNOT be declared lost UNTIL it hits the ground. Nothing covers what happens in an instance were both targets are lost so watching both is impossible, or if the target is not viable by the ref when it hits the ground.



Specifically what section and paragraph in the rule book states this?

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 Post subject: Re: How is this scored?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 4:46 pm 
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John H wrote:
Skeet_Man wrote:
What some fail to realize is that under the new rule, a target CANNOT be declared lost UNTIL it hits the ground. Nothing covers what happens in an instance were both targets are lost so watching both is impossible, or if the target is not viable by the ref when it hits the ground.



Specifically what section and paragraph in the rule book states this?


Not specifically the new rule, but:

"13. Dead Target
A target from which, in the sole judgment of the referee, a
visible piece is observed before the target hits the ground
as a result of having been legally fired upon."

The contention and crux of the new rule is that since the referee couldn't watch the first target to the ground due to the targets having collided before the firs target could be observed all the way to the ground, a determination could not be made either way, and nothing is established.

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S3 Smingler Shotgun Sports
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585-613-8098
[email protected]
http://www.sminglershotgunsports.com

Manufacturer of Custom Brass Barrel Weights for over/under, top single, and unsingle shotguns.


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 Post subject: Re: How is this scored?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 8:31 pm 
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Skeet_Man wrote:
John H wrote:
Skeet_Man wrote:
What some fail to realize is that under the new rule, a target CANNOT be declared lost UNTIL it hits the ground. Nothing covers what happens in an instance were both targets are lost so watching both is impossible, or if the target is not viable by the ref when it hits the ground.



Specifically what section and paragraph in the rule book states this?


Not specifically the new rule, but:

"13. Dead Target
A target from which, in the sole judgment of the referee, a
visible piece is observed before the target hits the ground
as a result of having been legally fired upon."

The contention and crux of the new rule is that since the referee couldn't watch the first target to the ground due to the targets having collided before the firs target could be observed all the way to the ground, a determination could not be made either way, and nothing is established.



For 40 years, I thought the target had to "BREAK" before it crossed the "Out of bounds marker". Oh well, Let just pull up those unnecessary markers.

BTW: I have never seen a skeet field on which the referee could see every target hit the ground. Perhaps we should get rid of the referees and let the shooters call lost and dead. Seems that is what it's coming to.

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 Post subject: Re: How is this scored?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2020 9:34 pm 
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oldskeetshooter wrote:


For 40 years, I thought the target had to "BREAK" before it crossed the "Out of bounds marker". Oh well, Let just pull up those unnecessary markers.

BTW: I have never seen a skeet field on which the referee could see every target hit the ground. Perhaps we should get rid of the referees and let the shooters call lost and dead. Seems that is what it's coming to.


That's not what the rulebook says... it says it has to be fired upon in bounds... it doesn't say it has to break.

III-C-3
One lost target shall be scored on:
d. Target fired upon after it is outside the shooting bounds

If you fire at it within bounds and it is a "Slow break" it could break after the marker.

The correct ruling in the OP is that the pair should be shot over, nothing established.

I have been a part of, and witnessed multiple "Correct" calls since the new rule, where the targets were shot at (no breaks visible) and then collide at the center stake. "Repeat pair, nothing established"

If there is "no break" and someone gets a repeat pair with nothing established... Then the same should apply if the person breaks the wrong target which then collides at the center stake.


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 Post subject: Re: How is this scored?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:36 pm 
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bigeejakes wrote:
oldskeetshooter wrote:


For 40 years, I thought the target had to "BREAK" before it crossed the "Out of bounds marker". Oh well, Let just pull up those unnecessary markers.

BTW: I have never seen a skeet field on which the referee could see every target hit the ground. Perhaps we should get rid of the referees and let the shooters call lost and dead. Seems that is what it's coming to.


That's not what the rulebook says... it says it has to be fired upon in bounds... it doesn't say it has to break.

III-C-3
One lost target shall be scored on:
d. Target fired upon after it is outside the shooting bounds

If you fire at it within bounds and it is a "Slow break" it could break after the marker.

The correct ruling in the OP is that the pair should be shot over, nothing established.

I have been a part of, and witnessed multiple "Correct" calls since the new rule, where the targets were shot at (no breaks visible) and then collide at the center stake. "Repeat pair, nothing established"

If there is "no break" and someone gets a repeat pair with nothing established... Then the same should apply if the person breaks the wrong target which then collides at the center stake.


With the exception of target collision, before a shot was fired, the new rule was thrown out almost as fast as it was implemented.

Also, I don't know of any referee, who can see a low 1, low 2 and quite possibly low 3, fly to the distance marker. If they run out onto the field to be able to view this action, they should be written up for a safety violation.

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 Post subject: Re: How is this scored?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:52 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:02 pm
Posts: 349
oldskeetshooter wrote:
Also, I don't know of any referee, who can see a low 1, low 2 and quite possibly low 3, fly to the distance marker. If they run out onto the field to be able to view this action, they should be written up for a safety violation.


Bad rule as now written and interpreted. It should be changed. That would be easy to do. A rule change like that could be considered an administrative change and could be accomplished without sending it to the Directors for a vote.


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 Post subject: Re: How is this scored?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2020 7:10 pm 
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Posts: 5781
Location: Northern Virginia
oldskeetshooter wrote:

Also, I don't know of any referee, who can see a low 1, low 2 and quite possibly low 3, fly to the distance marker. If they run out onto the field to be able to view this action, they should be written up for a safety violation.


That's a fair statement, and I think the "spirit" or "intent" of the rule, was to make sure the referee watched the target as far as he/she could to see if a visible piece comes off.

I remember one shoot, a gal on my squad shot Low 8, and it appeared she missed it. The referee never even turned her head to watch the bird. Simply called, "Lost!"

As the bird crossed the field, it simply broke perfectly in half, before reaching the far side out of bounds marker. (Of course, on L8, the center post is the out of bounds marker...) This bird, as witnessed by several of us on the squad, should have been called DEAD. We made our case, but the ref refused to hear it. So the shooter was penalized with a target she rightfully broke.

Skeet is a dynamic game. Trying to take every rule literally verbatim, will just drive you nuts. I believe most people understand the spirit of most rules.


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 Post subject: Re: How is this scored?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2020 9:54 am 
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Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:02 pm
Posts: 349
I've seen targets past the boundary stakes broken by shots from the next field. Are they scored dead?




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