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 Post subject: Re: Shotkam
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2021 8:59 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:14 am
Posts: 155
"It's just another gimmick marketed to people looking for a magic cure to targets missed due to a lack of adequate practice."
I really don't know why this topic seems to have generated so much heat. The Shotkam is simply a tool that can be used to help answer the question" why did I miss that target". In many cases, the answer is known without the use of a tool like Shotkam. I can often tell why I missed right after the shot. However, in some cases eg. a systemic error, it helps to know an answer to the following question "Where was the gun pointing when the shot was fired". This is a question that a properly regulated Shotkam can answer. What you do with that is up to you. If you are missing the target, then you should know the answer to "where should the gun be pointing when the shot is fired". I have recently started shooting Trap again after a 30 year layoff. One of the ways I relearned the leads is to look at videos on Youtube. Many of these are Shotkam videos!
However, a Shotkam can provide additional information. For example, on doubles, it shows the location and trajectory of the second bird whether you hit or missed the first one. I personally found this helpful in situations where for one reason or another, I shot the first bird late.
As to 'adequate practice"...I have long heard the phrase "Practice does NOT make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect!" ie. practicing the wrong thing does not help. Practicing the right thing does.
So I don't know why we need blanket statements like the above. I am prepared to use whatever tools are available to improve my shooting. I have just started using a borrowed Shotkam. So far I have some information that will help improve my shooting. Whether I can actually use that information to make the improvements is now up to me. For me, that involves being "in the moment" and not just walking up, loading and calling for the bird. I have to "go through the steps". Steps that I know about based on the information I have available, some of which comes from my use of a Shotkam to diagnose my misses, as well as my hits!
Peter.




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 Post subject: Re: Shotkam
PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:21 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2020 5:02 pm
Posts: 21
Location: St. Louis, Mo
I don't have one, but I do like their videos on YouTube. They are helpful for seeing the lead at different stations in real time vs all the perceived lead amounts that many note.

I've been shooting and reloading for a lot of years, with several long breaks in between. I just started up again, and the videos helped me get back into it again. I can understand some of the comments about the camera causing the shooter to start measuring the lead. I found myself doing some of that too.

_________________
Browning XS Special
MEC 9000G


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 Post subject: Re: Shotkam
PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:48 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2005 8:33 am
Posts: 167
Location: CT
Fun for hunting...

https://vimeo.com/495889773


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 Post subject: Re: Shotkam
PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:04 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:33 pm
Posts: 6570
Location: Mascoutah IL
pknimrod wrote:
The Shotkam is simply a tool that can be used to help answer the question" why did I miss that target".


Except it can't help answer that question at all. All it can show you is how the crosshairs on the camera were swinging and where they were positioned when the gun went off. That visual in no way tells you why you missed the target. The visual the camera shows you are the result of fundamentals that lead to hitting or missing the target. The camera cannot capture those fundamentals so when the camera records a miss it cannot tell you why.

The image can't tell you how strongly you were focusing on the target or whether or not you removed your cheek from the stock. It can't tell you if you were distracted by the pretty clouds in the sky. It can't tell you if your foot position was inappropriate for the break point and you just run out of swing as a result. It can't tell you any of the other multitude of reasons why someone misses a target.

I don't know what makes you think this is some kind of heated debate. I'm simply trying to get people to really think before wasting their money on another gimmick product.

If you want to waste money on a gimmick, then waste a lot less of it and purchase a case of Winchester Tracker shells. Their marketing claim is that you will "see why you have been missing". They can't really do that, but at least you are not spending as much money on a product that can only tell you what you already know; LOST.


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 Post subject: Re: Shotkam
PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:14 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:14 am
Posts: 155
DEG if you read the line that you quoted you will see that I said "help". The Shotkam WILL indeed show that I shot behind the claybird. Now the question is "why". I have tried to document my own, personal, (limited) experience with this tool.
In any case, I am tired of you and this thread.
Peter.


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 Post subject: Re: Shotkam
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2021 5:02 pm 
Limited Edition

Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:23 pm
Posts: 360
DEG wrote:

If you want to waste money on a gimmick, then waste a lot less of it and purchase a case of Winchester Tracker shells. Their marketing claim is that you will "see why you have been missing". They can't really do that, but at least you are not spending as much money on a product that can only tell you what you already know; LOST.

DEG, you seem to have strong opinions on this matter. But something tells me you've never used a Shotkam - correct?

I have, and I can tell you it's not a gimmick. Do I use it often? Nope, but it helped me sort out some pesky issues. An example - at one point I started having issues with low 6 - the Shotkam showed me that the target was beating me more often than not- not getting ahead of the gun, but reaching the gun during the target flight. On some shots I was able to pull ahead and break the bird, but this was inconsistent, to say the least. Now as others have said, it's just a tool - but it can tell you something that you are unlikely to diagnose on your own - or with the "help" of squad members. Of course it cannot tell you if the problem (in the example I gave) was due to an incorrect (for me - not Bender or Giambrone) hold point, look point, etc. But it will point you in a direction to assist in solving the problem. I finally solved my issue on low 6 - the Shotkam didn't solve it, I did, but it gave me insight as to the things I wanted to explore in reaching a solution.


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 Post subject: Re: Shotkam
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2021 5:42 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 3:22 pm
Posts: 164
Location: People's Republic of Massachusetts
If it’s a gimmick, why have numerous, national instructors used and endorsed the ShotKam? Instructors, like the Ashes, aren’t ill-informed and must protect their image, so very unlikely to endorse poor product performance. It’s a tool, like any tool, it must be used properly.


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 Post subject: Re: Shotkam
PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:14 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:33 pm
Posts: 6570
Location: Mascoutah IL
SWN wrote:
DEG wrote:

If you want to waste money on a gimmick, then waste a lot less of it and purchase a case of Winchester Tracker shells. Their marketing claim is that you will "see why you have been missing". They can't really do that, but at least you are not spending as much money on a product that can only tell you what you already know; LOST.

DEG, you seem to have strong opinions on this matter. But something tells me you've never used a Shotkam - correct?

I have, and I can tell you it's not a gimmick. Do I use it often? Nope, but it helped me sort out some pesky issues. An example - at one point I started having issues with low 6 - the Shotkam showed me that the target was beating me more often than not- not getting ahead of the gun, but reaching the gun during the target flight. On some shots I was able to pull ahead and break the bird, but this was inconsistent, to say the least. Now as others have said, it's just a tool - but it can tell you something that you are unlikely to diagnose on your own - or with the "help" of squad members. Of course it cannot tell you if the problem (in the example I gave) was due to an incorrect (for me - not Bender or Giambrone) hold point, look point, etc. But it will point you in a direction to assist in solving the problem. I finally solved my issue on low 6 - the Shotkam didn't solve it, I did, but it gave me insight as to the things I wanted to explore in reaching a solution.




How confusing. You start off claiming how the Shotkam helped you short out some pesky issues then ended by saying the "Shotkam didn't solve it...but gave [you] insight".

If a target does not break when you shoot at it then you have not put the pattern on the target. You do not need a camera to tell you that. Whether you miss above, below, behind or in front does not matter. The fundamentals that puts you on target are the same and the shotkam cannot tell which fundamental you need help with. It can't tell you how hard your focus on the target was. It can't tell you if you lifted your cheek from the stock. It can't tell you if your stand was screwed up and you just ran out of room to swing. It can tell you your hold point, but all you have to do is open your eyes to see that.


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 Post subject: Re: Shotkam
PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2021 5:59 pm 
Limited Edition

Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:23 pm
Posts: 360
DEG,

My, you certainly have strong feelings. My advice to you - don't buy a Shotkam.

By the way - just a question for someone as knowledgeable as you. Are you a AAA shooter? Maybe AA?


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 Post subject: Re: Shotkam
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:38 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 10:54 am
Posts: 2147
Location: Western Carolina - foothills to the Great Smoky Mtns!
Arkoneputt wrote:
Has anyone experienced improved performance using Shotkam?


I’ve not been in the same room with one, let alone used one but, I did a “Search” here at SGW.com after reading the following in an article authored by Chris Batha (I found it interesting, it piqued my curiosity and so I wound up looking for additional info here):

High-Tech Aids to Drills

There are several excellent electronic “gizmos” that allow you to film and record your shots and instantly replay them on your smartphone or iPad in the field or on the shooting grounds.

ShotKam, AimCam and Garmin Xero S1 are the three well-known brands in shotgun-analysis cameras. The Arrow Laser Shot deserves a mention, as well, in that its laser cartridge can be used in combination with a target projector to train on a moving target.

Whichever device(s) you choose, all are effective and can be used in these indoor drills as well
.”

Full article: https://shootingsportsman.com/indoor-drills/


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 Post subject: Re: Shotkam
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:58 am 
Limited Edition

Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 6:00 pm
Posts: 330
Location: Shanghai, Seattle & Sydney
I love my shotkam! It’s a very useful tool.




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