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 Post subject: Re: Flinch Cause and Cure
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:38 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 1:56 pm
Posts: 1504
The flinch can be caused from at least 3 things, and maybe more.

Some of the answers you have got are from someone who experienced
one type flinch and he apparently cures it, and gives you the secret.

That was last month's secret, and it may not work this month.

First of all you have to figure out why you flinch.

(1) Discomfort flinch - the gun hurts you, and you don't want to pull
the trigger.

(2) Movement flinch - the gun moves when it goes off and you don't
want it to move. The recoil does not hurt, but still you try to counter
the move, to keep the gun pointed where you look. 90% of pistol
shooters have this flinch. They are trying to keep the gun lined up
and and they know that thing is going to move when they drop
the hammer, so they develop a counter move to it.

(3) It don't look right - you are about to pull the trigger and your brain
objects, won't let you. It knows the picture does not look right.

So first you have to figure out why you are doing what you do.

I will take a wild guess, and say in your case the brain does not
like the picture, and it won't let you pull the trigger, This is the
"don't look right flinch". The best thing to get away from the
dont-look-right is to not look too long. the longer you look,
the more doubt you can come up with. To see if this is your
problem, shoot quick. Pull the trigger just as soon as the
gun gets in front of the target, never wait. The best exercise
is to shoot low gun. Doing this, as soon as the gun hits
your shoulder pull the trigger. Many sporting shooters have
figrured it out, that it does not pay to try and be really careful.
What that means is, just do it, don't wait and try to get
everything exact, because it is just about always counter
productive.

In the end you have to figure this out yourself for what is going
on. I will say this, I have known 2 shooters personally that
developed a flinch went to a release, and then after some
time, they also developed the flinch even shooting a release
trigger.

I myself have shot a release for an extended period of time
on 3 different occasions separated by many years. I found
I had the same problem with release as I did with the pull
trigger. I won't go into that problem, because it may not
be your problem.

If you can figure it out, we would like to hear what you figure
out. Is it pain, is it movement, is it "dont-look-right"? Maybe
you got another reason entirely.




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 Post subject: Re: Flinch Cause and Cure
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 6:24 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 6:51 pm
Posts: 438
FWIW I have shot a release trigger for the past 20 years and have not shot a house yet. Bad thing is I cannot shoot a pull trigger with the gun shoulder mounted now. A very knowledgable shooting buddy suggested we try this. Using a pull trigger and on a post to his right I mounted the gun, did soft focus, etc. but he called Pull. No flinches at all. Not sure what this proves but thought it interesting.

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 Post subject: Re: Flinch Cause and Cure
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 11:34 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2020 7:18 pm
Posts: 59
If you are flinching in a manner that wont allow you to pull the trigger I believe the cause is PAIN, and a pretty high level of pain. IMO anyone experiencing pain when shooting should NOT "tough it out" they should correct that issue immediately. If they don't they will end up in your position, your subconscious mind will not permit you to take an action that will result in pain. Fixing that will NOT be easy. BTW, I have a Browning BPS that was such a bad cheek slapper that I came away from my first Trap session with a bruised cheekbone that hurt for a full 10 days. Good news for me was that all it took to solve that problem was a Beretta 1/4 inch gel cheek pad.

So, suggestions. First lay off from shooting for at least two weeks and face the fact you may have to lay off for as much as a full year. Note, continuing to practice mounting and dry firing will probably get you back to the line quicker because it will help re-train your brain that the act of mounting a gun and pulling the trigger doesn't have to hurt.

However you will have to make some changes that result in your shooting free of pain before doing any live fire. What the changes are specifically I cannot advise. If may be that Beretta cheek pad will provide a solution. However it may be your only solution is going to a semi auto 20 gage to reduce the recoil to a pain free level. What you need to do now is a bit of Thought Experimenting to determine what is causing your issue. Typically it's either the cheek or the shoulder.

Note, I'm getting old enough now that 1 1/8 ounce 12 gauge Target loads are feeling a bit too hard hitting. Currently no pain when shooting the heavies but 6 rounds of skeet with the 12 would leave my shoulder a bit stiff for a day tr two. So my 12 gauge loads are now 7/8 ounce loads that don't jolt my shoulder too hard. I'm also getting into shooting 410 with tubes in the 12 gage to get some cheap practice in with near zero recoil loads. Yeah my hit rate has dropped but time and practice should help with that. Truth is that 12 gauge allows slhop in shooting that a 410 doesn't permit, so shooting 410 will force you to shoot better.


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 Post subject: Re: Flinch Cause and Cure
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:03 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:33 pm
Posts: 6679
Location: Mascoutah IL
scooter123 wrote:
If you are flinching in a manner that wont allow you to pull the trigger I believe the cause is PAIN, and a pretty high level of pain.


I think most people who experience this kind of flinching would disagree with your assessment.


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 Post subject: Re: Flinch Cause and Cure
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 12:59 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 4:08 pm
Posts: 2818
DEG wrote:
scooter123 wrote:
If you are flinching in a manner that wont allow you to pull the trigger I believe the cause is PAIN, and a pretty high level of pain.


I think most people who experience this kind of flinching would disagree with your assessment.


I don’t agree with his assessment.


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 Post subject: Re: Flinch Cause and Cure
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:01 pm 
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DEG wrote:
scooter123 wrote:
If you are flinching in a manner that wont allow you to pull the trigger I believe the cause is PAIN, and a pretty high level of pain.


I think most people who experience this kind of flinching would disagree with your assessment.


I think that you are correct. Pain has nothing to do with it. I will concede that perhaps shooting a lot of medium to heavy loads may START a shooter's tendency to anticipate the recoil, but I don't think that pain per se is the major factor.

The reason I say this is because as soon as a shooter switches to a release trigger, the flinching stops... IMMEDIATELY. The shooter is still using the exact same gun, the exact same loads, still has the same exact shooting stance, still has the same (often poor) vision, still has the same bad shooting habits, but VOILA, the flinching is gone!

So how is it that ANY of those conditions could be the cause of the flinching if the condition is still present but the flinching has disappeared? I don't claim to know exactly what does cause the flinching/freezing, but I know a lot of things that DON'T cause it because they are still there when the flinching has stopped with the release trigger.

If you've got a bad flinching/freezing problem, don't be surprised when you switch to a release trigger and find that not only is your flinching gone, but your shooting improves considerably too in a very short amount of time. I attribute this to the shooter being able to better concentrate on breaking the target without that nagging thought in his mind that he might flinch on the shot. Once he's shot several boxes of shells with the release trigger and built up his confidence and knows that he isn't going to flinch again, his shooting just naturally gets better.

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 Post subject: Re: Flinch Cause and Cure
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:03 pm 
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Location: Western Colorado
DEG wrote:
scooter123 wrote:
If you are flinching in a manner that wont allow you to pull the trigger I believe the cause is PAIN, and a pretty high level of pain.


I think most people who experience this kind of flinching would disagree with your assessment.

That would include me and everyone I've ever known who had to deal with persistent flinch. The causes are complex, but I've never seen anyone solve the problem by "laying off" for a long period of time. All the cases of persistent flinch that I have witnessed were solved - instantly and permanently - by going to a release trigger. The same people shooting the same loads through the same gun with a release trigger had no more flinching issues.

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 Post subject: Re: Flinch Cause and Cure
PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 4:14 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:56 pm
Posts: 158
A couple years ago I experienced the very thing described. I am a lefty and it was on high house 5. I was on my 4th 25 and had been shooting decent with my only two misses riding high house five till it was straight out front and missing in front of the clay. It was pissing me off. 4th round I did the same thing. When I went to shoot my trigger finger wouldn’t work. I remember thinking “what the hell just happened”? I was pissed. I got a 5 gallon bucket of my reloads and shot high house five. In my anger I was shooting as soon as I got on it. It did not happen again and has not happened since. It was some kind of mental block and recoil had nothing to do with it. Prior to going through that I would have said not being able to pull the trigger was malarkey. I did not say a word to the trapper when he asked what went wrong. After reading this thread, I’m feel fortunate I was able to beat it. The approach I took may be worth a try. If it has just started happening maybe you can nip it in the bud before it becomes a chronic problem. Keep in mind though, that is a study of one.


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 Post subject: Re: Flinch Cause and Cure
PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:20 am 
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Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2016 11:45 am
Posts: 549
Location: Missoula, MT
In Don Zutz's book, which is very good, he recommends taking Glycine and Taurine supplements. I am very doubtful of supplements in general, but I am taking them. I am also hoping they will lhelp my pickleball game. Is anyone esle taking them?

Randy

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 Post subject: Re: Flinch Cause and Cure
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:59 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2005 10:33 am
Posts: 379
Location: Virginia
Release triggers do not work for recoil flinch…I shoot with a couple guys that developed some serious recoil flinches and listened to other guys about release triggers…yes they helped for a couple rounds (months), bit once the mind and body get used to the trigger the mental game comes in to play again. As mentioned guy had a very bad flinch, got release triggers and a couple months later he was flinching again…had a couple reloads not go off and barrels were dipping. Just my observation and YMMV…

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 Post subject: Re: Flinch Cause and Cure
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:56 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:24 pm
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Location: Western Colorado
YMMV indeed, because my observation has been just the opposite of this...

GE-Mini-gun wrote:
Release triggers do not work for recoil flinch

It's a small sample size, but the 5 people I've known who developed persistent, debilitating recoil flinches were all able to solve them with release triggers. They're all frequent shooters using the same guns and loads, but none of them has flinched since going to release triggers, over time periods ranging from 2 to 10 years.

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"I always miss if I get a chance to take careful aim" (Pea Eye, in the movie Lonesome Dove)


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 Post subject: Re: Flinch Cause and Cure
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:20 pm 
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I've got to laugh at the term "recoil induced flinch". :lol: :lol: I've been shooting a release trigger on shotguns for about 17+ years. So this afternoon, I dug out an old Benjamin Air Rifle out of the closet. It's the kind that you pump up with a lever that's under the barrel. The more pumps you give it, the faster the pellet flies.

Anyway, I hadn't shot this gun in years so I wiped it off and re-read the instructions just to make sure I was doing everything right. Once I was satisfied that I was doing it right, I set up a target (box full of newspapers) in my garage. I loaded a pellet into the chamber, gave the gun 3 pumps, took careful aim, and pulled the trigger. Not bad... about 3/8" low left of my "X" mark.

Then I proceeded to shoot a few more pellets at the target. Finally, on about the 5th or 6th shot, I FLINCHED so [email protected] bad I didn't even pull the trigger. Yep, that "recoil" from the pellet gun caused me to flinch. :lol: :lol: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Flinch Cause and Cure
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:53 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:17 am
Posts: 888
I'm with you Ulysses. I'm absolutely positive my flinch is not recoil induced. My skeet gun weighs nearly 10 lbs and I never, but never, shoot 12 gauge in my skeet gun. In fact, it won't accept 12 gauge shells. Yet, I flinch just as bad shooting my .410 tubes as I do with the 20's.


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 Post subject: Re: Flinch Cause and Cure
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:06 pm 
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Location: Western Colorado
You're right Ulysses and Vette, I should have left the word "recoil" out.

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 Post subject: Re: Flinch Cause and Cure
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:07 pm 
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Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:33 pm
Posts: 6679
Location: Mascoutah IL
Ulysses wrote:
I've got to laugh at the term "recoil induced flinch".


Yea, me too. I believe the term was coined by someone who never flinched. Then over the years non-flinchers repeated it so much they began to believe it was established fact that most flinching is due to recoil. I know several, including myself, who flinches occasionally and it has nothing to do with recoil. I've never known anyone who flinched who thought it was related to recoil.

I know one who's flinch was cured after cataract surgery.

I also know one who cured his horrible flinch with a release trigger, but the release trigger did not improve his scores. I felt like this kind of supported my belief that most flinching is caused by your brain screaming at you to shoot while at the same time telling you that you are not on the target. The release trigger prevented allowed him to release during the flinch, but didn't put him on target any better.


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 Post subject: Re: Flinch Cause and Cure
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:27 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:17 am
Posts: 888
DEG wrote:
[ I've never known anyone who flinched who thought it was related to recoil.

Well, I have. It was me, actually. It wasn't all-the-time and sure enough was cumulative. See, my first O/U was a Citori 20 gauge with the hard plastic butt plate. I habitually shot a 1 oz load through it. I hunted doves relentlessly in those days. I observed that I could kill the first 12-13 birds with relative ease but would struggle like mad to take those last two or three birds to limit out. Well, one day I was watching a pair come in from a long ways off. I was flipping the barrel selector back and forth trying to make up my mind which barrel I would shoot first. I dallied long enough that the birds got in on top of me and I had to shoot NOW. I stood up, pushed the safety off, slapped the trigger and pulled the barrels down so hard I about face-planted in the dirt. In my messing around, I'd gotten the barrel selector hung up in the middle and it wouldn't fire, but my body sure thought it was going to. I quit for the day, got a recoil pad installed and never had another recoil flinch.


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 Post subject: Re: Flinch Cause and Cure
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:23 pm 
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Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2020 7:09 pm
Posts: 78
Location: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Vette Jockey2 wrote:
DEG wrote:
[ I've never known anyone who flinched who thought it was related to recoil.

Well, I have. It was me, actually. It wasn't all-the-time and sure enough was cumulative. See, my first O/U was a Citori 20 gauge with the hard plastic butt plate. I habitually shot a 1 oz load through it. I hunted doves relentlessly in those days. I observed that I could kill the first 12-13 birds with relative ease but would struggle like mad to take those last two or three birds to limit out. Well, one day I was watching a pair come in from a long ways off. I was flipping the barrel selector back and forth trying to make up my mind which barrel I would shoot first. I dallied long enough that the birds got in on top of me and I had to shoot NOW. I stood up, pushed the safety off, slapped the trigger and pulled the barrels down so hard I about face-planted in the dirt. In my messing around, I'd gotten the barrel selector hung up in the middle and it wouldn't fire, but my body sure thought it was going to. I quit for the day, got a recoil pad installed and never had another recoil flinch.


An epic description of a “your brain screaming at you to shoot while at the same time telling you that you are not on the target.“ flinch!


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 Post subject: Re: Flinch Cause and Cure
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:34 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:17 am
Posts: 888
Westender wrote:
Vette Jockey2 wrote:
DEG wrote:
[ I've never known anyone who flinched who thought it was related to recoil.

Well, I have. It was me, actually. It wasn't all-the-time and sure enough was cumulative. See, my first O/U was a Citori 20 gauge with the hard plastic butt plate. I habitually shot a 1 oz load through it. I hunted doves relentlessly in those days. I observed that I could kill the first 12-13 birds with relative ease but would struggle like mad to take those last two or three birds to limit out. Well, one day I was watching a pair come in from a long ways off. I was flipping the barrel selector back and forth trying to make up my mind which barrel I would shoot first. I dallied long enough that the birds got in on top of me and I had to shoot NOW. I stood up, pushed the safety off, slapped the trigger and pulled the barrels down so hard I about face-planted in the dirt. In my messing around, I'd gotten the barrel selector hung up in the middle and it wouldn't fire, but my body sure thought it was going to. I quit for the day, got a recoil pad installed and never had another recoil flinch.

An epic description of a “your brain screaming at you to shoot while at the same time telling you that you are not on the target.“ flinch!

No, sir, you are mistaken. Even though I capitalized NOW, I was not panicked. I had, by that time, shot thousands of doves. I had that bird inside 20 yards and had the lead. In fact, it was almost my favorite shot. There was no conflict. I flinched to avoid the cumulative effect of recoil.


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 Post subject: Re: Flinch Cause and Cure
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:22 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2010 9:15 pm
Posts: 5880
Location: Northern Virginia
randyflycaster wrote:
In Don Zutz's book, which is very good, he recommends taking Glycine and Taurine supplements. I am very doubtful of supplements in general, but I am taking them. I am also hoping they will lhelp my pickleball game. Is anyone esle taking them?

Randy


Do you flinch in Pickleball?


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 Post subject: Re: Flinch Cause and Cure
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:32 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:33 pm
Posts: 6679
Location: Mascoutah IL
Vette Jockey2 wrote:
DEG wrote:
[ I've never known anyone who flinched who thought it was related to recoil.

Well, I have. It was me, actually. It wasn't all-the-time and sure enough was cumulative. See, my first O/U was a Citori 20 gauge with the hard plastic butt plate. I habitually shot a 1 oz load through it. I hunted doves relentlessly in those days. I observed that I could kill the first 12-13 birds with relative ease but would struggle like mad to take those last two or three birds to limit out. Well, one day I was watching a pair come in from a long ways off. I was flipping the barrel selector back and forth trying to make up my mind which barrel I would shoot first. I dallied long enough that the birds got in on top of me and I had to shoot NOW. I stood up, pushed the safety off, slapped the trigger and pulled the barrels down so hard I about face-planted in the dirt. In my messing around, I'd gotten the barrel selector hung up in the middle and it wouldn't fire, but my body sure thought it was going to. I quit for the day, got a recoil pad installed and never had another recoil flinch.


Apparently you still haven't since what you describe is not a flinch. Leaning forward in anticipation of recoil is not the same as flinching and it's not uncommon. It's something that should be controlled but it's not a flinch.




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