ShotGunWorld Shotguns

It is currently Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:33 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 20 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: What's the (practical) difference?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:13 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:14 am
Posts: 165
International shooters use 24 grams of shot. Roughly 7/8 oz. What's the difference between this and a 28ga. shooting 3/4 oz. and a 20 ga. shooting the same? Many American skeet shooters use a 20ga. in 12 ga. events. Pattern density? Pattern size?
I AM aware of the 1/8 oz. difference between 3/4 and 7/8.
Thanks, Peter.




Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What's the (practical) difference?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:13 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:51 pm
Posts: 90
pknimrod wrote:
International shooters use 24 grams of shot. Roughly 7/8 oz. What's the difference between this and a 28ga. shooting 3/4 oz. and a 20 ga. shooting the same? Many American skeet shooters use a 20ga. in 12 ga. events. Pattern density? Pattern size?
I AM aware of the 1/8 oz. difference between 3/4 and 7/8.
Thanks, Peter.


7/8oz factory 12ga shells are hard to find. I reload some 7/8oz 12ga but I usually just shoot 20ga because I prefer the heavier gun with the tubes.

_________________
Kolar Max Lite Skeet Special 30” w/ AAA tubes
Browning Citori 725 Sporting 30” w/ Briley tubes
Browning Citori 725 Skeet 28”


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What's the (practical) difference?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:51 pm 
Limited Edition

Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2007 8:17 pm
Posts: 438
Location: South Alabama
When I reloaded, prior to moving to Germany in 2008 and returning to the powder shortages in 2011, I had settled on fast 3/4 and 7/8 oz 12 ga loads for skeet, trap and skeet in the woods sporting. I primarily used high antimony shot and thought the loads really maintained effective core patterns but I only checked and verified with 40 yard full choke test patterns since my shooting partner leaned toward trap. I also had good luck with steel international loads in Germany shooting low gun, 0-3 second delay bunker trap with the German hunters association (DJV).

Nowadays I shoot factory 1200 FPS but still prefer and trust 7/8 oz loads for skeet and sporting.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What's the (practical) difference?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:13 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2015 6:44 am
Posts: 231
pknimrod wrote:
International shooters use 24 grams of shot. Roughly 7/8 oz. What's the difference between this and a 28ga. shooting 3/4 oz. and a 20 ga. shooting the same? Many American skeet shooters use a 20ga. in 12 ga. events. Pattern density? Pattern size?
I AM aware of the 1/8 oz. difference between 3/4 and 7/8.
Thanks, Peter.


I had shoulder surgery awhile back and went to shooting 3/4oz. loads in the 20 for reduced recoil. My thoughts only, but I believe the pattern in the 20 gauge might be a little less dense than when shooting the 28 gauge with the same 3/4 oz load. You can get around this by using one choke tighter if you feel your hits seem a little light. I do that when I shoot 7/8oz. in the 12 gauge. With the 12 I usually shoot cylinder chokes with 1 oz. and go to the skeet chokes for the 7/8 oz. Seems the breaks are about the same doing that.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What's the (practical) difference?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 9:33 am 
Presentation Grade
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:32 pm
Posts: 739
pknimrod wrote:
International shooters use 24 grams of shot. Roughly 7/8 oz. What's the difference between this and a 28ga. shooting 3/4 oz. and a 20 ga. shooting the same?


The difference is velocity. 12 gauge international loads are faster than a standard 20 or 28 gauge load.

_________________
Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. -Gustav Mahler


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What's the (practical) difference?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 9:15 am 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2007 8:49 pm
Posts: 3810
Location: Mormon Mecca
Hal4son wrote:
The difference is velocity. 12 gauge international loads are faster than a standard 20 or 28 gauge load.
What he said. USA 7/8 oz loads (.875 oz) typically rated at 1200 fps while International 24 gram loads (.846 oz) are rated at 1350 fps.

_________________
Bob Hicks, from Mormon Mecca
I’m 78 years young and going as hard as I can for as long as I can.
“Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don’t mind.”
Image
Retired


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What's the (practical) difference?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 4:42 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:14 am
Posts: 165
Thank you gentlemen. I guess what I was asking, in a round about way, was: "What difference does the starting gauge make?" Or, could you shoot 7/8 ounce loads at 1350 fps from a 20 ga. or a 28ga.? I assume that there is plenty of pressure to spare, and I would think that judicious wad design would reduce "blown patterns" if they became an issue. The advantage? A lighter gun. The laws of Physics dictate the recoil.
The point is that the gauges, as we have them, were designed in a different era, and technology has increased the overlap of all the gauges except the .410.

Peter.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What's the (practical) difference?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:26 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:58 pm
Posts: 1439
Location: Oklahoma
pk -- Not sure if this addresses you question, but here's some of my patterning numbers that might shed some light on the performance differences between the gauges.

Here are a few of my pattern numbers comparing the performance of two Winchester AA Target factory loadings with 1-ounce of #8 lead shot through 20- and 12-gauge guns. They don’t have the exact same load components (not sure how you could do that anyway), but close enough to show the patterning differences of the two gauges, in these two guns anyway.

Patterning results from 20- and 12-gauge Browning Citori’s with 28" Invector-plus barrels and Briley flush chokes (patterns average of five, 30" post-shot scribed circle, yardage taped muzzle to target, and in-shell pellet count average of five).

20-Gauge Browning Invector-plus w/ 28" barrel and Briley flush chokes
Winchester AA Heavy Target Load
1 oz #8 lead (410 pellets) @ 1,165 fps
30 YARDS -- CYL / pattern 216 (53%)
30 YARDS -- SK / pattern 237 (58%)
30 YARDS -- IC / pattern 276 (67%)
30 YARDS -- M / pattern 341 (83%)
40 YARDS -- IM / pattern 270 (66%)
40 YARDS -- XF / pattern 291 (71%)

12-Gauge Browning Invector-plus w/ 28" barrel and Briley flush chokes
Winchester AA Extra-Lite Target Load
1 oz #8 lead (393 pellets) @ 1,180 fps
30 YARDS -- CYL / pattern 218 (55%)
30 YARDS -- SK / pattern 256 (65%)
30 YARDS -- IC / pattern 305 (78%)
40 YARDS -- LM / pattern 251 (64%)
40 YARDS -- M / pattern 292 (74%)
40 YARDS -- IM / pattern 295 (75%)

Obviously, the only way to really know how a load/choke combo will perform in your gun/choke is to pattern it! That said, there are some general tendencies concerning this 20- vs 12-gauge question that can be stated. A 12-gauge is usually more efficient than a 20 gauge; it usually takes a degree or two of choke tighter in the 20 gauge to reach similar 12 gauge pattern density; and when you get beyond ~40 yards, the 12 gauge will almost always be capable of putting more pellets in the pattern than the 20 gauge.

Remember, a load’s effectiveness is dependent on its ability to provide adequate pattern density with pellets having sufficient pellet energy for the bird or target at the distance the shot is taken! In practical terms, there is little difference in “effectiveness” when the same payload and shot size is used IF the barrel is choked properly to attain adequate pattern density at the distance they are used.

Regardless of gauge, you must be using an adequate payload (so you have enough pellets) with the proper pellet size (so they have enough retained energy) and you must put it through the appropriate choke (so you have adequate pattern density) for the distance you are shooting.

I believe it was Oberfell or Brister that said… “it’s the load that kills... not the gauge!”

Good luck!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What's the (practical) difference?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 2:16 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:33 pm
Posts: 6679
Location: Mascoutah IL
The difference between 3/4 and 7/8 oz of shot is that the 7/8 oz load contains an extra ~60 pieces of #9 shot in the pattern.

Eventually those extra pellets will provide a visible chip that would have been a lost target at the lower shot weight. How often that occurs depends on how often you center the target in the pattern. It may be the difference between 1 out of 100 or 1 out of a 1000. I've never seen a shooter that centers the target in the pattern 100% of the time. If you are that person you are wasting money shooting anything bigger than a 410.

The practical difference will depend on the individual.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What's the (practical) difference?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:45 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2020 7:18 pm
Posts: 59
I load and shoot 7/8 ounce loads for skeet, partly because I'm cheap and partly for the reduced recoil. Once 410 hulls become available I'll probably do most of my Skeet shooting with tubes in my 12 gauge 686. Because they are really cheap to load, have no recoil at all, and I believe that shooting 410 will build my skills and I do need to build my skills. BTW, while I do not have any notable shoulder injuries I shoot with many over 60 shooters who do have shoulder issues and as a result I've gone for lighter recoil just to put off the time when I'll have to work around a bum shoulder. Note, turned 66 this year.

As for 28 gauge, I have had numerous shooters tell me that the 28 Gauge produces the best pattern. Also shoot with a club member who is AA in the 28 and he loves the caliber and really doesn't like 20 gauge shooting 3/4 ounce loads.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What's the (practical) difference?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 4:56 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:33 pm
Posts: 6679
Location: Mascoutah IL
scooter123 wrote:
...and I believe that shooting 410 will build my skills and I do need to build my skills.


I though that for a very long time and stuck with the 410 for an entire summer. For me, the problem with the 410 as a learning caliber is that I could not learn anything from my misses. For every other gauge, I know what I have done wrong almost every time I miss and I can learn from the miss. With the 410, most of the time I have no clue why I missed.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What's the (practical) difference?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:55 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2010 9:15 pm
Posts: 5880
Location: Northern Virginia
scooter123 wrote:
.......Once 410 hulls become available I'll probably do most of my Skeet shooting with tubes in my 12 gauge 686. Because they are really cheap to load, have no recoil at all, and I believe that shooting 410 will build my skills and I do need to build my skills.


Depending on what Powedr you use for 410 reloading, and the hulls, you will possibly find it cheaper to load a 3/4 oz 20 ga than a 410.

You can sometimes get the 20 ga hulls for free, or very cheap. Most 410 loads use a heavier powder charge than a 3/4 oz 20 ga. The little extra shot is a wash when comparing hull cost.

And I agree with another poster above, shooting 410 doesn't always allow you to know where you missed.

it is for this reason I prefer practicing with 3/4 oz 12 ga, with very tight chokes. It's either a hit or a miss, with no slop breaks! And after years of experience, I can usually tell if I was in front of, behind, above, or below a target.

You will certainly have some sloppy breaks with a 1/2 oz 410, and that proves nothing for training purposes!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What's the (practical) difference?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:10 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:14 am
Posts: 165
Well, this has come a long way from my original thoughts, which were, basically, that if 7/8 shot is enough for International shooters, then perhaps it should be for us American shooters as well, and, if so, why not shoot the smaller gauges, rather than the 12? The recent twist to .410 is interesting because last week I switched back to a .410 and shot a couple of rounds. I like the .410 because the hits are always good hits, and the misses are generally clean misses! I shoot a tubed set, so I can put my ShotKam back on and see where the gun is pointing when the shot goes off. I recollect that DEG despises the Shot kam, but I plan on using it. Once I know where the gun is pointing, then I can(hopefully) figure out why it is pointing there!
Peter


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What's the (practical) difference?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:14 am 
Tournament Grade
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2005 12:13 pm
Posts: 260
Location: Colorado Western Slope
I recently watched an International match on YouTube. It was difficult to tell, but it appeared that the contestants were either using flush screw in chokes or fixed choke guns. It also appeared that most were shooting shorter barreled guns than what have become popular for the American game. They did have some really oddly shaped stocks. Most of the guns that had brand decals were Perazzi or Beretta (maybe because of sponsorship?) with the exception of a Russian competitor and I have absolutely no idea what he was shooting. I saw one of them get a flag (lost bird) because he flinched slightly and moved before the target left the house. It was interesting to watch. I used to think I was a fast shooter until I watched these people. We used to shoot "international" at my old club, but I don't think we had the speed of the birds jacked up enough. The game is fun and challenging.

_________________
"Everyone's entitled to my opinion."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What's the (practical) difference?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:39 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:14 am
Posts: 165
The stocks were probably Ergosign fully adjustable stocks made in Germany. I have handled one and they fit amazingly well, especially the pistol grip. I think that Hancock shoots a Beretta DT10 or DT11. Perhaps you can post a link to the video as I have never seen someone flagged! The speed of the bird is not the main problem for me, it is the random delay!
Peter


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What's the (practical) difference?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:07 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:33 pm
Posts: 6679
Location: Mascoutah IL
pknimrod wrote:
....if 7/8 shot is enough for International shooters, then perhaps it should be for us American shooters as well, and, if so, why not shoot the smaller gauges, rather than the 12?


This logic makes no sense.

The rules of international skeet make that game more challenging with lower average scores. If that's what you want for American skeet then requiring a reduced shot charge will make it more challenging and reduce scores. However, until the rules are changed most will not want to handicap themselves by shooting reduced payloads.

If by "enough" you are referring to enough to break a target why not just limit skeet shooting to Red Rider BB guns since a .177 cal BB is more than enough to create a visible chip necessary for a dead target.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What's the (practical) difference?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:06 pm 
Limited Edition

Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:41 pm
Posts: 341
7/8 oz of shot is enough for international shooters because they are limited to that by the rules. If given an option, I am sure many would choose to shoot more lead.

_________________
Las Vegas is the only place where money talks. It says Good Bye.
Frank Sinatra


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What's the (practical) difference?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:34 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:14 am
Posts: 165
"requiring a reduced shot charge will make it more challenging and reduce scores"

That's exactly right DEG. Folds on this forum seem to fall into (at least) two groups:
Those who want to shoot American skeet and see how many birds they can break before a miss.
Those who see American skeet as a skill, and once they have acquired the appropriate (to them) skill level want to shoot something different ie. the sub gauges, doubles at 3, 4 and 5, low gun etc. They have no desire to shoot 400 straight just to get into the shoot offs. I am, of course, in the latter group. I still enjoy American skeet, but also enjoy the changes that, to me, make things interesting.

sneem2, one of the major differences between International Skeet and American skeet is that the International game is frequently changed as skill levels improve. When were the rules to American skeet changed in any significant way? The simple fact is that Americans like big numbers eg. "I shot 400 straight" sounds a lot better than "I shot a 99" but beat everyone else in the world and won an Olympic Gold medal!
Peter


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What's the (practical) difference?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:52 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:33 pm
Posts: 6679
Location: Mascoutah IL
pknimrod wrote:
I still enjoy American skeet, but also enjoy the changes that, to me, make things interesting.


That's why they invented sporting clays.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What's the (practical) difference?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:50 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:14 am
Posts: 165
Agreed that sporting clays is more challenging, however it is also more expensive!
Peter




Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 20 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Registered users: 2LegsBetter, albanygun, amboy49, bigbluedodge, Bing [Bot], Bladeswitcher, Blammer, brindleplott, brokefootkenny, Bsswampranch, buster45, charlietee, Chemungcountytrap, civil1977, Claybuster126, cleboje, Curly N, CWPINST, dannyd93140, dfw_bill, drcook, Eibar, EricB, Ezra Smack, fiver, FL-Shooter, Flyingtargets!, FTRPILOT, Galaxy Flyer, Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot], grade6man, gunhunterNE, Hal4son, IheartShotguns, Jager1, JayMc, jeffreyk, John H, JPFROG, Jreedtn, KRIEGHOFFK80, mactownbob, Major146, McFarmer, Mike Foley, Milkmaster, Mohegan, Mule Driver, Muskieman223, Novak77, noweil, Olbirdkilla, oyeme, pjmx, popcorn09, ppd1107, RFlyer, riflegunbuilder, Rockett0, scooter123, SHughes, sigma_pete, Skeet_Man, Tadman1, thehoner, tracker 6, tray999, TruePairLover, twin rivers, TwoFourThree, Vette Jockey2, wboonn, Westender, ysr_racer


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group    - DMCA Notice