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 Post subject: Trouble with high 2
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:36 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 11:39 am
Posts: 54
Location: St. Louis, Mo
High 2 gets away from me too often. Seems like too much in my peripheral vision and I can't pick up the bird until 2/3 of the way to the center stake, or more.
I'm holding my gun about 1/4 to 1/3, and looking back a bit toward the house but I seem to get stuck looking too hard at the opening or something that I see everything but the bird.
Any suggestions to help see high 2 sooner?
Thanks!




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 Post subject: Re: Trouble with high 2
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:55 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:03 pm
Posts: 29
Go to YouTube and type Todd Bender High 2 in the search. Just a short clip but you should be able take something away from it.


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 Post subject: Re: Trouble with high 2
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:57 am 
Presentation Grade
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:27 pm
Posts: 843
I'm kind of shooting in the dark without seeing you shoot (heh), but you mention seeing "too much" and "looking too hard at the opening". When I shoot H2, my gun is at 1/3 (pace off a marker at 1/3...it's further out than many people think) and the center of my vision at my look-point is close enough to the gun that I can't really see the opening (maybe 4ft from the gun and up in the target's expected flight path). I'm disciplined to start a gentle rotation when my peripheral vision detects any movement, but the center of my vision remains fairly close to the gun throughout the shot. So, ensure your hold point is correct, and experiment with a look-point closer to your gun and see if that helps. Your eyes also may be darting back towards the opening when you call for the target or when the target emerges. Give your eyes time to settle and relax at your look-point before calling for the target, and force yourself not to glance back towards the window when the target emerges. It can take some practice to begin trusting your peripheral vision.



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 Post subject: Re: Trouble with high 2
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:07 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:11 am
Posts: 4706
Location: Western Tampa, FL
Watch me shoot H2 and then do the opposite! I have missed more H2 than all other stations combined!! :oops:


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 Post subject: Re: Trouble with high 2
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:41 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:22 am
Posts: 123
There are also youtube videos on "soft focus". You need to understand the difference between soft focus (used to pick up the target), and sharp or hard focus (used once the target is acquired). Your mind cannot maintain hard focus for long periods of time, so you don't want to lock onto the target right from the opening in the high or low house. Hope these comments help. -Ed


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 Post subject: Re: Trouble with high 2
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:14 pm 
Presentation Grade
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 10:30 am
Posts: 771
Location: Massachusetts
I agree with the Bender method.

90% of breaking high two consistently takes place before you call pull, most of the remaining 10% is just getting a good start.


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 Post subject: Re: Trouble with high 2
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:28 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2011 9:52 am
Posts: 535
Location: Eastern Kentucky
I'm with Kenny, think your looking too far away from your gun. Hold point=Bottom of the window - 3rd out from house. Look point=about a 6" to the left of I the barrel - about 6" up from the barrel. You'll see the flash of the target, this is when you start your move,then you'll hard focus on the target, don't look for a lead just shoot the target


Last edited by kyskeet on Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Trouble with high 2
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:24 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 11:39 am
Posts: 54
Location: St. Louis, Mo
Update:
Today I was able to hit 100% on high 2 through 3 rounds.
I think I'm doing most everything incorrectly that was mentioned in the responses. I do tend to look back at the house too much. I'm trying harder to just look once at the opening and then look out further and call for the bird.
One of the comments are look point to the right of the barrel. I don't think I'm doing that, but by the time I pick up the bird it's probably there.

Something else that may have helped today was the sun was perfectly behind us, with a bright blue sky to contrast the bird.


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 Post subject: Re: Trouble with high 2
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:38 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2011 9:52 am
Posts: 535
Location: Eastern Kentucky
Woody_1, sorry my mistake, post as been corrected, should have read to left of your barrel.


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 Post subject: Re: Trouble with high 2
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:54 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:33 pm
Posts: 6725
Location: Mascoutah IL
My hold point is straight out parallel to the front of the house and my look point is the sky over the top of my barrel or slightly to the left of the barrel. The moment I see movement in my peripheral vision I start swinging and looking to get a hard focus on the target.

Today I rarely miss that target, but in the past I struggled with that target more than any other. I finally figured out my problem was that I was too aggressive on the target. I would see the flash of the target and swing at hyper-speed and end up way in front of the target. I would then hit the brakes and end up shooting behind the target. I cured this by consciously reminding myself to slow down right before calling for the target.


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 Post subject: Re: Trouble with high 2
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:55 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2010 9:15 pm
Posts: 5883
Location: Northern Virginia
Woody_1 wrote:
High 2 gets away from me too often. Seems like too much in my peripheral vision and I can't pick up the bird until 2/3 of the way to the center stake, or more.
I'm holding my gun about 1/4 to 1/3, and looking back a bit toward the house but I seem to get stuck looking too hard at the opening or something that I see everything but the bird.
Any suggestions to help see high 2 sooner?
Thanks!


1. High 2 gets away from me too often. - Do you mean to say the target is beating you? Meaning, it gets in front of your barrel? If so, move your hold point, AND your look point, out a little bit.

2. but I seem to get stuck looking too hard at the opening AND Any suggestions to help see high 2 sooner? - If you are looking in to the hole, you are most likely seeing the bird too soon, when it is screaming, and you therefor over react and shoot way in front of it. To slow the bird down a little bit, again, move hold and look point out. I believe based on this statement about looking in to the opening, you are seeing the bird too soon, not too late. Or, the bird is screaming past you so fast, you aren't seeing it.


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 Post subject: Re: Trouble with high 2
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:19 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 6:28 pm
Posts: 1198
Location: Skeet and Trap Fields
DEG wrote:
My hold point is straight out parallel to the front of the house and my look point is the sky over the top of my barrel or slightly to the left of the barrel. The moment I see movement in my peripheral vision I start swinging and looking to get a hard focus on the target.


This is how I do it too.


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 Post subject: Re: Trouble with high 2
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:03 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:27 pm
Posts: 15
I use a hold point a bit closer to the house which gives me more time in hard focus. Follow the clay and pull away.


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 Post subject: Re: Trouble with high 2
PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:39 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:14 am
Posts: 167
Well, everyone is giving you the "sustained lead" method. Nothing wrong with that, but in my early days, I would hold just in front of the house, swing aggressively, and fire as soon as I caught up to the target. Worked fine (in my younger days) and the target was broken quickly enough for doubles.!
I too have had trouble shooting sustained lead, however, I have just noticed in the videos on Youtube (eg. Chris Batha) that, when calling for the target, the gun is shouldered, but the cheek is NOT on the stock. The face is away from the stock looking for the bird. This makes sense to me because holding 20 feet of so out from the house it is very difficult to see the target coming out of the house with the cheek on the stock. Though it worth mentioning.
Peter


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 Post subject: Re: Trouble with high 2
PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:02 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 11:39 am
Posts: 54
Location: St. Louis, Mo
[quote="pknimrod"]Well, everyone is giving you the "sustained lead" method. Nothing wrong with that, but in my early days, I would hold just in front of the house, swing aggressively, and fire as soon as I caught up to the target. Worked fine (in my younger days) and the target was broken quickly enough for doubles.!
I too have had trouble shooting sustained lead, however, I have just noticed in the videos on Youtube (eg. Chris Batha) that, when calling for the target, the gun is shouldered, but the cheek is NOT on the stock. The face is away from the stock looking for the bird. This makes sense to me because holding 20 feet of so out from the house it is very difficult to see the target coming out of the house with the cheek on the stock. Though it worth mentioning.
Peter[/quote]

Good info.
Things were different 30yrs ago when I shot a lot. Seems like it takes me longer than it use to in order to get on the bird now.
Low 6 use to be my favorite. I could break it halfway to the center stake pretty consistently. Now it's at the center stake, but it's still fun. We also would play a game and see how close we could get to the low house from station 8. Half way to the house was about the best I could do.

Thanks for all the suggestions and I'll try to implement as much as I can going forward. As I posted the other day, I broke 100% on low 2, and I think most of it came from not looking so far back, but time will tell.


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 Post subject: Re: Trouble with high 2
PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:16 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:51 pm
Posts: 91
pknimrod wrote:
Well, everyone is giving you the "sustained lead" method. Nothing wrong with that, but in my early days, I would hold just in front of the house, swing aggressively, and fire as soon as I caught up to the target. Worked fine (in my younger days) and the target was broken quickly enough for doubles.!
I too have had trouble shooting sustained lead, however, I have just noticed in the videos on Youtube (eg. Chris Batha) that, when calling for the target, the gun is shouldered, but the cheek is NOT on the stock. The face is away from the stock looking for the bird. This makes sense to me because holding 20 feet of so out from the house it is very difficult to see the target coming out of the house with the cheek on the stock. Though it worth mentioning.
Peter


When the bird first leaves the house it’s too quick for the human eye to reliably focus on. If your look point is just left of your barrel you should focus on infinity but have your mind paying attention to the peripheral. Once your peripheral vision detects the flash you begin your swing keeping eyes on the target until it comes into focus. Let your muscle memory set the lead and pull the trigger.

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 Post subject: Re: Trouble with high 2
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2021 8:58 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:30 pm
Posts: 31
Start far enough out from the window and be sure your gun is properly fitted (and pointed) so as not to hide the target behind the barrel, and it becomes a much easier shot.

I also used to miss it frequently and then had an epiphany a couple of years ago that I was "letting" it beat me and making me rush without fully acquiring the target. Meaning, I was too close to the window and then having to rush and find the target once it was already past.

Then I started pointing a little further to the right and focusing on the end of the barrel and using my left side peripheral vision and it quickly became exponentially easier.

The closer you look to the window, the faster the target appears. If you "find" it a little further out, it looks much slower and therefore easier to hit.

The Bender videos help to visualize this.


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 Post subject: Re: Trouble with high 2
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 1:20 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:56 pm
Posts: 161
I find it interesting to read how many comments there are related to someone else shooting high two. Here are my thoughts and observations about me shooting high two. You can’t get on the target till you can see it. Step up on the pad and call for a few targets and just watch them. At first you will catch a blur of movement. As it continues to travel it will come into clear focus. Make note of where that happens. Put your gun a good 10’ in front of where the target comes into focus. Let your eyes and head move back about halfway between where you first pick up the target and where you see it clearly. Call for the target. When you see it, start the gun swinging slowly. As it comes into focus, hook up your mount, bleed off your lead, and shoot it. It takes very little movement this way. I find I break the target sooner and more consistently without the need to hurry. You shoot with your eyes. Your look and hold should be determined by what you can see, rather than what someone else can see.
Willie


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 Post subject: Re: Trouble with high 2
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 1:30 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:17 am
Posts: 910
Willie T wrote:
I find it interesting to read how many comments there are related to someone else shooting high two. Here are my thoughts and observations about me shooting high two. You can’t get on the target till you can see it. Step up on the pad and call for a few targets and just watch them. At first you will catch a blur of movement. As it continues to travel it will come into clear focus. Make note of where that happens. Put your gun a good 10’ in front of where the target comes into focus. Let your eyes and head move back about halfway between where you first pick up the target and where you see it clearly. Call for the target. When you see it, start the gun swinging slowly. As it comes into focus, bleed off your lead and shoot it. It takes very little movement this way. I find I break the target sooner and more consistently without the need to hurry. You shoot with your eyes. Your look and hold should be determined by what you can see, rather than what someone else can see.
Willie

I think you're finally understanding that you have to do what works for YOU. I believe even Bender readily concedes that what he teaches are good starting points. You refine them to what works for you.


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 Post subject: Re: Trouble with high 2
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 2:46 pm 
Limited Edition

Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:02 pm
Posts: 499
Among experienced skeeters, most H2 misses are in front.

Do be afraid to try shooting right at the target with no lead.




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