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 Post subject: Money shoot... any interest?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:01 pm 
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Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:39 pm
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Location: North Carolina
A buddy and I are thinking about the possibility of a shoot at a really nice club in Western North Carolina for money as opposed to registered targets...

Thinking about an entry fee to cover targets and prize money. Maybe some side games?

I know better than to ask this, but any thoughts or interest?




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 Post subject: Re: Money shoot... any interest?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:56 pm 
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If you're throwing live box pigeons, you might have a great success story

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 Post subject: Re: Money shoot... any interest?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:49 pm 
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Money shoots are only for the very best unless you break it down to classes. One's comment about Box Pigeons is right on. Years ago box birds hoots along with hand-thrown
pigeons were held all over the country and were mostly by invitation only. While not illegal, many people frowned on killing pigeons for money. Many people won't remember the shoots held at the old National Gun Club in San Antonio. This facility is now known as the National Shooting Complex or NSC. Yes, this is now the NSSA and NSCA home grounds. Most of the money came from a Calcutta which I believe is illegal if the club retains any portion of the Calcutta money. I am no lawyer so don't take my comments as right. SERA could tell us.

I was involved in a Sporting Calcutta in Colorado many years ago. It was at the Colorado state shoot and was a lot of fun. The club asked me to be the auctioneer for this event. This was done by putting the scores in numerical order from high to low and then taking the high score and low score and making a team out of it. All teams were picked this way. I personally don't think that this is the way to do it but we all had a lot of fun. I even picked two of the three winning teams. I looked at the teams in the middle and I knew a lot of the shooters.

The Best money shoot for clay targets was an event that Scott Robertson came up with. It was called the "World All Round Shotgunning Championships." The entry fee was $5,000.00 per entry. Of course, at that price, there wasn't a lot of entries. I was the target setter for the sporting class part. It was one of the greatest shoots that I have ever been involved with but it was only held two years. I believe that George Digweed was the HOA both years. All clay target disciplines plus box bird pigeons were shot. I personally think it would be very hard to do a stand alone Sporting event unless you could find a way to break out the shooters so everyone could have a chance to win. Trap was able to do this in the handicap event by dividing the money among the yardage groups. I won a lot of money over the years playing these Calcutta's.


Mike McAlpine


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 Post subject: Re: Money shoot... any interest?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:26 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:09 pm
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We do something like this on a very small scale in W PA. It is invitation only. Ran much more like a side bet among friends. Our little group is a lot of fun. We are a tight-knight, no bull collection of individuals. New shooters or less skilled shooters shoot A&B "easy" traps, more accomplished shooters shoot C&D "hard to extreme" traps so the handicap is built in. I wouldn't dream of trying this with the general public or in a registered format.

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 Post subject: Re: Money shoot... any interest?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:04 pm 
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black,

That's a great idea. You are right, the handicap is built in. I good setter can figure out the difficulty for both groups to make things more even.

Mike McAlpine


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 Post subject: Re: Money shoot... any interest?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:12 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2006 8:40 pm
Posts: 734
If you want to include a larger number of shooters of varying abilities, I think you need to focus on more than the HOA and top few. How about a large entry Lewis type payout, but without a complicated formula? Just pick a number. Maybe 5 or fewer. Pay out a “pot” for every 5 or so scores? Spread the $$ throughout the ranks. $100+Lewis ?? Shoot offs for ties.


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 Post subject: Re: Money shoot... any interest?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:46 am 
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Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:09 pm
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Mike McAlpine wrote:
black,

That's a great idea. You are right, the handicap is built in. I good setter can figure out the difficulty for both groups to make things more even.

Mike McAlpine


I like our target setter. Sure, lots of people complain, but I feel like we have something for everyone. I shoot all the traps and the Cs and Ds prepared me well for Rick Hemingway's Orange course at Back Woods Quail Club. Actually, thought it was a smidge soft compared to my daily diet, but it was a lot of fun! No complaints there either!

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 Post subject: Re: Money shoot... any interest?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:54 pm 
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black,

It is great to hear that you like your setter. So many times (especially in the past) many people raised hell about a setter. The best setters try very hard to give their shooters a great course. One that is safe, out of the sun, uses the right target color to create maximum contrast with a give background, fun presentations that are not over the top, no window shots, presentations that give the shooter at least three full seconds to see the target and make their move, creative presentations, a wow factor or two on every course and a balanced course difficulty. There is a lot more to target setting than just the presentations.

I was one of the first target setters in the country. As I have mentioned many times, I started my target setting career in 1986. At first, I had a lot to learn but I kept at it and I finally figured out what it took to set a great course. When I did this, the bitching stopped for the most part. In other words, I learned from my mistakes and comments from my shooters. One of the things that helped me the most was shooting my own targets. I always shoot a few pair at each station to make sure that I have not made any mistakes . By doing this I have time to fix any problems that I may have found. I also try to shoot my courses during the tournament for targets only. This lets me hear what the shooters really think about the targets. I always drive around and watch the shooters. I will stop in a spot where most of the shooters on a stand can't see me and just watch and listen.

I will be going to Mexico City the first of December to teach a large target setting school. While I have been to Mexico many times over the years to built several clubs, this will be the first time I have held a target setting school there. I will be outside of Mexico City in a small town and I have been assured that this area is safe. I already know a lot of people there so I am fine with my safety.

I plan to write an article about this school and the different clubs in that part of the country. I will have some great pictures for the magazine. I sent my manual last night to have it translated to Spanish. While I do speak a little Spanish, I will have a couple of translators to help me. The instructor program taught us to teach without talking so I shouldn't have any problems.

Talk to you later,

Mike McAlpine
The Clay Target Academy


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 Post subject: Re: Money shoot... any interest?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:14 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:09 pm
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Good stuff Mike.

Himpiano, what cost were thinking? And payouts? I saw a shoot in NY that had a $2,500 entry fee. If memory serves, only 3 people signed up.

We are small time, our pot is usually about $1,500 to $3,000 - winner take all. It's just a buck or so a bird and it juices some friendly competition.

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 Post subject: Re: Money shoot... any interest?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:32 pm 
Tournament Grade
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Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:39 pm
Posts: 105
Location: North Carolina
We were mulling over the idea of around $250 per shooter maybe? Maybe more, maybe less depending on club costs per shooter. Get sponsors for payouts until it gets rolling... Payout to HOA and then top 5 per class or something along those lines. I would like to see it where the top guy in every class at the very least gets his money back.

I agree with class breakdown and I know the tops guys are gonna take it all. Maybe a separate Master class shoot all together at the same time with the C and D targets as mentioned?

I shoot about 30 registered shoots every year and some of them are big shoots that require a lot of travel and expense. I know this is a "gentlemans" sport and I get that. However, at the Gamaliel Cup last year, I shot a 190 and finished around M2 or 3 if I remember correctly. For my effort, I got a big "thanks for coming"...same thing that happens to most of us at most of the shoots.

It would be a breath of fresh air every once in a while to at least get your entry money or more back as a result of some decent shooting. Just a thought...

And for the record, I would LOVE box birds...However, there's so much public outcry over them any more, I'm not sure it's worth all the hassle.


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 Post subject: Re: Money shoot... any interest?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:03 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:09 pm
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himpiano wrote:
We were mulling over the idea of around $250 per shooter maybe? Maybe more, maybe less depending on club costs per shooter. Get sponsors for payouts until it gets rolling... Payout to HOA and then top 5 per class or something along those lines. I would like to see it where the top guy in every class at the very least gets his money back.

I agree with class breakdown and I know the tops guys are gonna take it all. Maybe a separate Master class shoot all together at the same time with the C and D targets as mentioned?

I shoot about 30 registered shoots every year and some of them are big shoots that require a lot of travel and expense. I know this is a "gentlemans" sport and I get that. However, at the Gamaliel Cup last year, I shot a 190 and finished around M2 or 3 if I remember correctly. For my effort, I got a big "thanks for coming"...same thing that happens to most of us at most of the shoots.

It would be a breath of fresh air every once in a while to at least get your entry money or more back as a result of some decent shooting. Just a thought...

And for the record, I would LOVE box birds...However, there's so much public outcry over them any more, I'm not sure it's worth all the hassle.


So you are looking for something with some size to it, at least potentially some size. That's something I never tried. We keep our group small on purpose so that everyone sees the results of every shot. Keeps the drama down.

Tony Rivera created something called Matchplay Sporting, which you can heat about on the Tony Rivera Behind the Break episode, if you haven't already.

I think you make a valid point, sporting clays is fun but not fun enough to incur the extra costs over recreational or charity shooting. I'd rather save the money or make my own bets. That is just me. I hope the NSCA finds its way.

I think it is a worthwhile idea and if you figure out how to make it work at that scale you might have Made Sporting Great Again!

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 Post subject: Re: Money shoot... any interest?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:54 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:37 pm
Posts: 78
I saw this one time and wondered why it wasn't done more but it was at a bigger shoot and Saturday night when everyone was drinking and having a good time they said that if anyone was interested they would have a super target event the next day.
I can't remember if it was 50 targets but it was 100.00 pay in cash = cash pay out, most didn't have a chance to win but they let everyone know they could waste 100.00 as good as anyone? a big ego thing I guess but they had about 30 people stand up and pay , they had a huge jar full of cash.
I remember thinking if you went to a big event with hundreds of people how much that would be ?
It would be good if they could make it so everyone had a chance to win some money like group all master-aa-a shot on a set of targets and b-c-d-e shot on another?
or figure a way they could play and not feel like they wasted the money?
I guess if the top group wanted to side bet off the books so to speak they would be cool, it's all about the bragging rights anyway ?
It's not a Calcutta but it looks like if you wanted to sponsor a shooter you could pay and split the money?
a great way to get your kid started into the life of gambling right ?


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 Post subject: Re: Money shoot... any interest?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:54 pm 
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him,

If you are looking at a smaller shoot, why not shoot a skins game. It is played just like the same game in gold. Set 10 fairly tough stations (Not over the top, Well, maybe a station with a 70 yard crosser. This will put a little luck in the game. This is a one tie all tie game. If you are interested, I will send you the rules.

The cost when I used to shoot it was $5.00 per station for a total of $50.00. If everyone tied through station 9 and someone won station 10 by themselves that person would win $500.00. Anytime a station was won and with no ties, all of the money that had built in the pot up to that station would go to that shooter. You can play this game with different groups and any number of shooters. I once didn't shoot high score or tie until station (the first 8 stations had been) tied 9 and one all nine stations. Then I won station 10 by myself and ended winning all of the money. If a person wins only one station, they mad their money back. You can shoot skins several times in a day. It is a lot of fun.

Mike McAlpine


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 Post subject: Re: Money shoot... any interest?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:46 pm 
Tournament Grade
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Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:39 pm
Posts: 105
Location: North Carolina
Mike,

That definitely sounds do-able and fun as well. If you have time, I would love more info on how that would work. It could be done on a large scale with all classes playing their own respected games I assume?


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 Post subject: Re: Money shoot... any interest?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:12 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:09 pm
Posts: 3241
Mike McAlpine wrote:
him,

If you are looking at a smaller shoot, why not shoot a skins game. It is played just like the same game in gold. Set 10 fairly tough stations (Not over the top, Well, maybe a station with a 70 yard crosser. This will put a little luck in the game. This is a one tie all tie game. If you are interested, I will send you the rules.

The cost when I used to shoot it was $5.00 per station for a total of $50.00. If everyone tied through station 9 and someone won station 10 by themselves that person would win $500.00. Anytime a station was won and with no ties, all of the money that had built in the pot up to that station would go to that shooter. You can play this game with different groups and any number of shooters. I once didn't shoot high score or tie until station (the first 8 stations had been) tied 9 and one all nine stations. Then I won station 10 by myself and ended winning all of the money. If a person wins only one station, they mad their money back. You can shoot skins several times in a day. It is a lot of fun.

Mike McAlpine


That sounds like a neat variation. I belive you already have my email. If you wouldn't mind, would you please send me the rules?

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 Post subject: Re: Money shoot... any interest?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:37 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 3:22 pm
Posts: 151
Location: People's Republic of Massachusetts
I’d love to have a copy, too. Sounds like a nice game for a small group of shooters.


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 Post subject: Re: Money shoot... any interest?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:41 pm 
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Location: S.E. Wisconsin
One way to have a money shoot but not scare any of the " I dont have a chance to win" shooters away is with a "class purse". If you want to get in you pay the fee,much like Lewis class. All money stays in class and HOA of the shooters playing in each class wins the money for that class purse. I have also seen some type of split say 50/30/20.


Steve

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 Post subject: Re: Money shoot... any interest?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:40 am 
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Let us know where and when your money shoot is going to take place. I am not a social shooter but I like shooting for money. If I have to deal with a crowd the payout better be at least $500. If there is no money then skipping the crowd and shooting a few flats of practice tickles my fancy. Again, I am sure I am in the minority.

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 Post subject: Re: Money shoot... any interest?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:54 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2014 8:34 pm
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I shot in one of these in ETX a few years ago. It was 3 man teams, $175/shooter. I think $100 per shooter went into the pot. I forget the breakdown but I want to say that the HOA shooter got 20%, the HOA team got 30% and then they paid the remaining 50% out via Lewis class. There were close to 75 shooters, even though I and my team were middle of the road we won a Lewis spot, which was enough to cover our entry, shells, gas and breakfast (lunch was provided). It was the hardest course I have ever shot, the HOA was in the low 80s, my NSCA avg. at the time was low to middle 70s, I think I shot a 58. It was a blast, I think the payout is the best way to handle prize money but it won't work on a big scale.

I forgot to mention that one of the things that made it successful was that it was a team event. You didn't have to be the biggest dog, just have the most consistent pack.


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 Post subject: Re: Money shoot... any interest?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 1:04 pm 
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NTxAg wrote:
I shot in one of these in ETX a few years ago. It was 3 man teams, $175/shooter. I think $100 per shooter went into the pot. I forget the breakdown but I want to say that the HOA shooter got 20%, the HOA team got 30% and then they paid the remaining 50% out via Lewis class. There were close to 75 shooters, even though I and my team were middle of the road we won a Lewis spot, which was enough to cover our entry, shells, gas and breakfast (lunch was provided). It was the hardest course I have ever shot, the HOA was in the low 80s, my NSCA avg. at the time was low to middle 70s, I think I shot a 58. It was a blast, I think the payout is the best way to handle prize money but it won't work on a big scale.

I forgot to mention that one of the things that made it successful was that it was a team event. You didn't have to be the biggest dog, just have the most consistent pack.


That sounds like a lot of fun. Was it invitation only? Invitation only or some sort of exclusivity seems to be the way to go as far as I can tell. We have only been doing ours every other month for about 6 months now.

Did they ever do another one or was it just a ome time thing?



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