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 Post subject: Re: A online subscription with a World Champion.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 6:23 pm 
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lt0026 wrote:
Any time you have people competing against one another you will have those that cheat. It's human nature for some people. No matter what game or sport. And if you have a weak sanctioning body it only gets worse.


So we should support the cheaters because others exist? Do the weak sanctioning bodies take all the responsibility or are we responsible for being part of that?




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 Post subject: Re: A online subscription with a World Champion.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 6:28 pm 
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Battue0626 wrote:
When the players who play the game are still playing, it was far from making your point. Especially when they also kept the ring. Hate them if any want, but they are still in the game and as players were not penalized. Ben was....what more would you like? You may want him banned, tarred, made to get down on his knee and beg forgiveness from the SC powers that be. You are going to be wanting for a long time, and he will be back.

Nor did I say it was OK or that I liked it. I did say cheating goes on in SC’s in all classes and is far from rare in sports.


I frankly don’t care if he comes back and competes. Lots of people violate rules and come back. But that doesn’t mean we should put money in his pocket by watching his videos. We either are part of the solution, or part of the problem. By your way of reasoning , why not cheat?


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 Post subject: Re: A online subscription with a World Champion.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:12 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:50 am
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Location: Western Pennsylvania
Nope.... my way of reasoning says he is paying the imposed penalty of not being allowed at the present to compete under the auspices of the CPSA. The penalty was not he wasn’t allowed to make a living off SC.
And since has something to sell, then there will always be a market for his product. Some will buy and others will not and the world of SC moves on.


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 Post subject: Re: A online subscription with a World Champion.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:28 pm 
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drawdc wrote:
Battue0626 wrote:
When the players who play the game are still playing, it was far from making your point. Especially when they also kept the ring. Hate them if any want, but they are still in the game and as players were not penalized. Ben was....what more would you like? You may want him banned, tarred, made to get down on his knee and beg forgiveness from the SC powers that be. You are going to be wanting for a long time, and he will be back.

Nor did I say it was OK or that I liked it. I did say cheating goes on in SC’s in all classes and is far from rare in sports.


I frankly don’t care if he comes back and competes. Lots of people violate rules and come back. But that doesn’t mean we should put money in his pocket by watching his videos. We either are part of the solution, or part of the problem. By your way of reasoning , why not cheat?


I think what Ben did was wrong, and he deserves all the heat he has gotten.

But, he didn’t kill anyone, and the only one to suffer any consequences because of it are himself. Personally, I think he deserves another chance to right his sinking ship. We as a society, are so hell bent to crush others — especially with the social media.

With all of the other problems going on here in the U.S. and the world right now, this situation isn’t even on my radar. Ben has something good to offer in his lessons and videos. He didn’t hurt anyone, and no one died. He’s gotten a good swift kick in the balls from some organizations and sponsors. Been beaten up pretty good on social media. All of which is his own fault, and he probably deserves.

With that all said, I’m willing to watch his videos and give him another chance. His stuff is pretty good, and worth looking at. I’ve enjoyed them.

Just my own opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: A online subscription with a World Champion.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:41 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:02 am
Posts: 47
Quote:
When you watch his videos he can show hits (views) and use those numbers to help sell advertising on his site. Whether you like it are not, you are saying it was okay for him to cheat. We would all be better off supporting someone like Gebben Miles.


Once you go down the path of implementing your own form of punishment through voting with your wallet based on an individual moment in someone's life you might as well free yourself of all earthly possessions. There is not a company, product, or person around that has not had a moment of poor choices that many would consider not inline with their personal moral standards. This cancel culture society that we are living in today is dangerous.

Personally being a newer SC shooter that watches almost any instructional video that i can have found Ben's to my favorite. I have seen a little from Gebben but they really were not very in depth and I didn't pick up much from them. I will continue to support Ben through viewership until the point I no longer find benifit in doing so. I will let the system of justice handle the punishment they see fit for his actions.


Last edited by Lacyb on Fri Aug 28, 2020 5:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: A online subscription with a World Champion.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:28 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:50 am
Posts: 81
Location: Western Pennsylvania
For those that want Hurstewaite to go away, it may be best if they didn't give him so much free props re his videos...just a thunk....

Na....you have to stand up....flap the indignation flag on the world wide...and for the inquisitive, let them know he has instructional videos on you tube....Hmmmm.....All of this while making yourself feel better....Gotta love it...


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 Post subject: Re: A online subscription with a World Champion.
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2020 6:00 am 
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Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:27 am
Posts: 182
Location: wakeman,ohio
He got caught he is a cheater . He is a phony world champion that cheated it is crazy people stick up for him.. I would be so ashamed evidently he does not care . How many other shoots did he cheat at???Joemez 519873


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 Post subject: Re: A online subscription with a World Champion.
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:35 am 
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Battue0626 wrote:
For those that want Hurstewaite to go away, it may be best if they didn't give him so much free props re his videos...just a thunk....

Na....you have to stand up....flap the indignation flag on the world wide...and for the inquisitive, let them know he has instructional videos on you tube....Hmmmm.....All of this while making yourself feel better....Gotta love it...


You seem over wrought about this. The thread was started by Class of 78 touting the videos. He was a new forum member and 5 of his 6 posts have been about the videos. I found it interesting that he has English spelling in some posts, such as rumour. No one started the thread to bash Ben. No one said he should never be allowed to shoot again or he should go away. The thread ran its course. I didn't count, but it looked like about 1/3 thought his videos were great and they would use them regardless, about 1/3 didn't condone it but might watch them anyone, and about 1/3 were strongly opposed, me included.

Everyone had their say and the thread was quiet for over two weeks. Class of 78 brought it up again. There is no righteous indignation. Just opinions. Those of us who feel it is wrong have a right to say so. Good luck to you.


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 Post subject: Re: A online subscription with a World Champion.
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:38 am 
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Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:50 am
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Location: Western Pennsylvania
This is bigger than Hurstiwaite....Why the Non disclosure? He had some help or there would be no need for a Non-disclosure....Someplace out there, someone else is being covered up for....some cheater....something that would embarrass the wrong people.....

Be that as it may, he still is allowed to make a living...so watch or not watch his videos....and if he has some tips to help you in your honest game....you would be a fool not to.....or "you can cut your nose off to, etc, etc"...you should get it, but some won't.....

Would an aspiring bicycle racer not look at Lance Armstrong videos to improve his form? (and everybody cheated in that sport....You had to cheat to even qualify)


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 Post subject: Re: A online subscription with a World Champion.
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:28 am 
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Battue--the reason that many sports have gone to slo-mo TV replay is that pro umpires are capable of making a mistake. 100X that for amateur refs.

draw--your point about "clicks" convinced me to stop watching his videos. Thx

You see , we can all learn something. :D

_________________
Nsca # 540300. Been loving this game since 01.

Our prentice Tom may now refuse
To wipe his scoundrel master's shoes
For now he's free to sing and play
O'er the hills and far away.


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 Post subject: Re: A online subscription with a World Champion.
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:36 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:50 am
Posts: 81
Location: Western Pennsylvania
drawdc wrote:
Battue0626 wrote:
For those that want Hurstewaite to go away, it may be best if they didn't give him so much free props re his videos...just a thunk....

Na....you have to stand up....flap the indignation flag on the world wide...and for the inquisitive, let them know he has instructional videos on you tube....Hmmmm.....All of this while making yourself feel better....Gotta love it...


You seem over wrought about this. The thread was started by Class of 78 touting the videos. He was a new forum member and 5 of his 6 posts have been about the videos. I found it interesting that he has English spelling in some posts, such as rumour. No one started the thread to bash Ben. No one said he should never be allowed to shoot again or he should go away. The thread ran its course. I didn't count, but it looked like about 1/3 thought his videos were great and they would use them regardless, about 1/3 didn't condone it but might watch them anyone, and about 1/3 were strongly opposed, me included.

Everyone had their say and the thread was quiet for over two weeks. Class of 78 brought it up again. There is no righteous indignation. Just opinions. Those of us who feel it is wrong have a right to say so. Good luck to you.



Ans I acknowledge your right to your opinion....but can’t ever remember implying you shouldn’t have one. I disagree on you thinking there has been no righteous indignation....depending on ones definition of the same.

And I appreciate your well wishes of Good fortune....however I’m curious how that has any relevance to the discussion...be that as it may...good luck to you also...

However, when it comes to luck, and keeping to the SC theme....I will leave you with a Digweed reply when he was wished good luck before an event....which was....”What’s luck have to do with it?” I thought it humorous...


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 Post subject: Re: A online subscription with a World Champion.
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:04 am 
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Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:50 am
Posts: 81
Location: Western Pennsylvania
drawdc wrote:
Battue0626 wrote:
For those that want Hurstewaite to go away, it may be best if they didn't give him so much free props re his videos...just a thunk....

Na....you have to stand up....flap the indignation flag on the world wide...and for the inquisitive, let them know he has instructional videos on you tube....Hmmmm.....All of this while making yourself feel better....Gotta love it...


You seem over wrought about this. The thread was started by Class of 78 touting the videos. He was a new forum member and 5 of his 6 posts have been about the videos. I found it interesting that he has English spelling in some posts, such as rumour. No one started the thread to bash Ben. No one said he should never be allowed to shoot again or he should go away. The thread ran its course. I didn't count, but it looked like about 1/3 thought his videos were great and they would use them regardless, about 1/3 didn't condone it but might watch them anyone, and about 1/3 were strongly opposed, me included.

Everyone had their say and the thread was quiet for over two weeks. Class of 78 brought it up again. There is no righteous indignation. Just opinions. Those of us who feel it is wrong have a right to say so. Good luck to you.



drawdc wrote:
.



The message I'm seeing from a lot of you is it is okay to cheat if you make good videos, you won't be held accountable. You are making up excuses for him since you like his instruction. If a professional golfer was caught like this, he wouldn't be able to give lessons at a Putt-Putt.

This is the type of sport that's very existence depends on integrity. Don't start complaining if someone's grandma doesn't keep score right and the kid doesn't correct her. You are saying it's alright. And yes, they are watching.



I see reference that implies he shouldn’t be allowed to give lessons...some are making up excuses for him....the very existence of the sport depends on integrity?....Grandma not up to standards on scoring? righteous indignation? Preach on my brother...preach on!!! Yaasss, I say and throw in a hallelujah!!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: A online subscription with a World Champion.
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:47 am 
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sera wrote:
Battue--the reason that many sports have gone to slo-mo TV replay is that pro umpires are capable of making a mistake. 100X that for amateur refs.

draw--your point about "clicks" convinced me to stop watching his videos. Thx

You see , we can all learn something. :D


I have a very conservative friend that likes to go on CNN's Facebook page and rant and rave. I actually agree with him most of the time. What he fails to realize is that CNN doesn't give a damn what he says as long as he posts. That's a hit and it usually solicits at least 10 responses. Advertisers look at total hits, the way we used to look at newspaper circulation, and that determines if they advertise, where they advertise, and how much they pay. That is the reality of the social media world. Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: A online subscription with a World Champion.
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2020 11:20 am 
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Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:50 am
Posts: 81
Location: Western Pennsylvania
Sera,
SC ref on the whole do a great job and we should all thank them as we leave the station.


The worst ref call I saw was at a world FITASC Shoot off and it probably cost one of our own the title. And the refs...2 of them, both would be classed as pros..backed each other up, and called a lost on a target where perhaps 100 people saw the piece. My thoughts are the second ref didn’t want to embarrass the the first, by changing his call. Conjecture on my part. FWIW. Amateur refs do a great job and the game comes to an end without them.

Without clicks you tube goes away The “Dude Perfect” boys make 3 million plus, per year, on clicks.


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 Post subject: Re: A online subscription with a World Champion.
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2020 1:27 pm 
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I , too, have seen some horrible calls in clays. Worst I saw was at the Worlds in Chicago where the Brit refs gave our hot shot Jr (Brit) 4 targets. And one of the guys did not give our ex-pat Brit a target he clearly broke. Kind of soured me on the whole thing. [YES I did speak up--when asked.]

I'm pretty happy w/ amateur refs BUT , I rarely see these anymore. If I want to shoot , I have to shut my piehole and shoot. I haven't played the betting pools in over 10 yrs.

I've met BH and can vouch for the fact that he can be very charming. I also know that in my real world (trial lawyer) that the shady guys often work to get as many points as possible from the Bar Assn so their shadiness is often forgiven. I am part Siclian and never forget.

_________________
Nsca # 540300. Been loving this game since 01.

Our prentice Tom may now refuse
To wipe his scoundrel master's shoes
For now he's free to sing and play
O'er the hills and far away.


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 Post subject: Re: A online subscription with a World Champion.
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2020 4:38 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:50 am
Posts: 81
Location: Western Pennsylvania
Since we have moved on to refs.....

Serious Fitasc tournament....I'm shooting behind one of the top shooters in the country.....Experienced Fitasc referee...40 yard crossing rabbit, he shoots and the rabbit rolls a little and then goes up in the air and falls apart..Ref calls lost and he said that rabbit broke...Ref turns to the squad and the others say they were not watching...I reply "It jumped and came apart in the air....it was delayed, but it broke." It wasn't a long delay, but it wasn't an instant brake...Rabbit may have rolled 3 or 4 feet after the shot...

What did the ref call?


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 Post subject: Re: A online subscription with a World Champion.
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2020 5:22 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2010 12:49 pm
Posts: 3177
drawdc wrote:
Battue0626 wrote:
When the players who play the game are still playing, it was far from making your point. Especially when they also kept the ring. Hate them if any want, but they are still in the game and as players were not penalized. Ben was....what more would you like? You may want him banned, tarred, made to get down on his knee and beg forgiveness from the SC powers that be. You are going to be wanting for a long time, and he will be back.

Nor did I say it was OK or that I liked it. I did say cheating goes on in SC’s in all classes and is far from rare in sports.


I frankly don’t care if he comes back and competes. Lots of people violate rules and come back. But that doesn’t mean we should put money in his pocket by watching his videos. We either are part of the solution, or part of the problem. By your way of reasoning , why not cheat?


I think what Ben has deservingly gone through is a pretty good deterrent in itself as why not to cheat. Not to mention the moral fiber most of us are made of as being the primary reason to play by the books and rules.

But, I’ve known plenty of people, who were given a second chance, and took full advantage of it and became a better total person. Again, he only hurt himself and no one was hurt or killed.

Whether someone elects to watch Ben’s shooting videos is completely up to them, and it’s none of your business. Or mine. Or anyone else’s.

Put this into the proper perspective for a moment. It’s just not the end of the world, and if not for social media, it would have all gone away by now.

I’m willing to give the guy a break with a second chance. Whether you do or not is fine by me. It’s time to move on. There’s far more important things in life, and in sporting clays itself to be concerned about.


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 Post subject: Re: A online subscription with a World Champion.
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2020 5:35 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:50 am
Posts: 81
Location: Western Pennsylvania
Well said Mule Driver....

In addition, if he comes back every eye in the house will be on him for the entire shoot. His card will be scrutinized for anything out of the ordinary. Scorers will be told to pay extra attention. He will be under the microscope.

Let me make the rules and forever more another shooter on his squad would be designated to observe his score on every station. Along with after the shoot starts, he doesn’t touch his card. Something he would have to agree to for reinstatement.


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 Post subject: Re: A online subscription with a World Champion.
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2020 6:14 pm 
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Mule Driver wrote:
drawdc wrote:
Battue0626 wrote:
When the players who play the game are still playing, it was far from making your point. Especially when they also kept the ring. Hate them if any want, but they are still in the game and as players were not penalized. Ben was....what more would you like? You may want him banned, tarred, made to get down on his knee and beg forgiveness from the SC powers that be. You are going to be wanting for a long time, and he will be back.

Nor did I say it was OK or that I liked it. I did say cheating goes on in SC’s in all classes and is far from rare in sports.


I frankly don’t care if he comes back and competes. Lots of people violate rules and come back. But that doesn’t mean we should put money in his pocket by watching his videos. We either are part of the solution, or part of the problem. By your way of reasoning , why not cheat?


I think what Ben has deservingly gone through is a pretty good deterrent in itself as why not to cheat. Not to mention the moral fiber most of us are made of as being the primary reason to play by the books and rules.

But, I’ve known plenty of people, who were given a second chance, and took full advantage of it and became a better total person. Again, he only hurt himself and no one was hurt or killed.

Whether someone elects to watch Ben’s shooting videos is completely up to them, and it’s none of your business. Or mine. Or anyone else’s.

Put this into the proper perspective for a moment. It’s just not the end of the world, and if not for social media, it would have all gone away by now.

I’m willing to give the guy a break with a second chance. Whether you do or not is fine by me. It’s time to move on. There’s far more important things in life, and in sporting clays itself to be concerned about.


I moved on two weeks ago. I didn’t bring it back up. It’s okay for the OP to continue to tout his videos but not for others to object. I am done now.


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 Post subject: Re: A online subscription with a World Champion.
PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:12 am 
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Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:37 pm
Posts: 15
I think somewhere there has been a breakdown in what punishment if any was handed down. I read on here BH will one day be back but his YouTube videos are mainly at competitions which social media says he won the last 3.

And This week there is a large shoot at EJ Churchill’s and his own social media says he’s competing there. I’m afraid nothing about the entire situation inc the NDA makes any sense, he’s still competing and teaching.

So I for one will learn as much as I can from the videos and try to improve




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