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 Post subject: shot velocity
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:20 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:18 am
Posts: 24
I'm sure this has been discussed here before, but I couldn't find it and thought someone just might find this helpful. (maybe not/maybe I just had too much time on my hands)

So I was speaking with a friend of mine that shoots his practice with 12g B&P 1oz Comp 1's that are 1160fps and competes with 12g B&P 1oz F2's that are 1300fps. So I started thinking about the difference in shot speed to distance to the target. ie would you have to visualize a different target impact to hit at different target velocities.

For the simplicity of math I used 1200fps & 1300fps with a clay speed of 55mph and a target at 90' at 40yds.

Clay speed: 55mph
Target dist: 40yds

Target speed:
Feet/mile: 5280
Feet/hour: 290,0400
Feet/minute: 4840
Feet/second: 80.66667
Feet/10th sec: 8.06667

Shot speed:
1200fps time to travel 40yds: 0.10 seconds
1300fps time to travel 40yds: 0.092 seconds
0.10-0.092=0.007693ft or 0.6250513 or 7.45 inches.

7.45 inches is my math of a difference. This does not take into consideration choke constriction or "shot string" (which I have no clue about). But it appears to me that the difference in shot velocity to accuracy on target is irrelevant as the 7.45inches would be consumed by pattern and the minute angle difference would be a brutal calculation.

feel free to check my math.

thanks




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 Post subject: Re: shot velocity
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:00 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
Posts: 5885
You’re right on. Throw that target for 100 shots/ea to 1000 different shooters, with the shooter not knowing the MV of those shells, and no one would comment about leads.....just felt recoil.


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 Post subject: Re: shot velocity
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 1:07 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:12 am
Posts: 5604
Just get the shot swarm in the right place and don't worry about micromanaging shotshell's. They don't throw the exact same pattern every shot. It isn't MOA bench rest rifle shooting.


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 Post subject: Re: shot velocity
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 1:15 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:18 am
Posts: 24
my theory in all sports was to practice how you compete and try to make all your set up/gear as consistent as possible.

I haven't been at this long, and initially I shot 1.125 as fast as possible with the theory that the more lead I threw down range the better chance I had of hitting something. manager of the club said shoot 1oz and nothing faster than 1250 in order to reduce recoil (to your point).


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 Post subject: Re: shot velocity
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 1:18 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:12 am
Posts: 5604
See what throws the most consistent patterns on paper and what you can tolerate recoil wise. 1oz 1250 fps will break any target on a clay course. So will 1 1/8 ounce 1145fps. But they won't break targets if the shot swarm is in the wrong place. Chances are very high you aren't missing because of ammo velocity.


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 Post subject: Re: shot velocity
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 2:13 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 6:28 pm
Posts: 1096
Location: Skeet and Trap Fields
Just remember, the faster you push an object, the greater the resistance and the higher the rate of deceleration. Downrange, the difference in velocity in your example won't be 100 fps.


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 Post subject: Re: shot velocity
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:06 pm 
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I shoot 1160fps at registered targets. I have found that my head doesn't hurt , my cheek is not slapped and my shoulder feels nothing w/ those loads and if I do my part , the targets break.

Recoil is a real thing and not good for your scores.

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 Post subject: Re: shot velocity
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:10 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:20 pm
Posts: 60
Higher velocity/speed more energy on shot to target. Better break at distance. Shot hardness is another factor.


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 Post subject: Re: shot velocity
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:27 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
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StephenK wrote:
Higher velocity/speed more energy on shot to target. Better break at distance. Shot hardness is another factor.


Not quite true......especially at medium to long distances to the target.


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 Post subject: Re: shot velocity
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 6:03 pm 
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I suspect this is based on rifle understanding?

I don't think many eyes can see 7" at 40 yards, and by then the swarm of bb's is nearly 4 feet and is about 10 time the size of the clay

Your math is good though

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 Post subject: Re: shot velocity
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:13 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:06 am
Posts: 95
Recoil mitigation is much more important than speed.

Faster loads bleed off speed faster than slower loads, thus the delta of a 1200fps vs 1350fps at 50 yards is not 150fps, but much less.

1200 fps #7-1/2 shot at 50 yards is going 515 fps, with .85" of gel penetration and .73 lbs energy.
1300 fps #7-1/2 shot at 50 yards is going 538 fps, with .92" of gel penetration and .80 lbs energy.
1350 fps #8 shot at 50 yards is going 527 fps, with .81" of gel penetration and .66 lbs energy.
***(Info from another site)

The above info plus personal experience is why I have the utmost confidence in my 7.5 1170 1 ounce loads. Focus and good technique equate to good scores, not speed.

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 Post subject: Re: shot velocity
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:26 pm 
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He should do himself a favor and shoot the 1230 or 1260 B&P's for BOTH practice and competition and be done with it. The 1300's are not gaining him anything except more recoil and perhaps a little more open pattern. 1160's are slow enough they don't break the target with quite the same authority as a 1300 does, so may not inspire the same confidence the 1300 does. 1230/1260 is a really sweet middle ground to both extremes...

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 Post subject: Re: shot velocity
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:58 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 3:46 pm
Posts: 96
B&P 1160 is a superb shell, I would be using it 100% but had a station where I could hear it ping the dome of the target and not break it (slow trap shot @ 35yrds). After 10 tries and the same exact result, I then popped in a 1260 BP and smoked them every time.

So now I practice exclusively with 1160, find it a joy and have settled on the 1260BP (1-1/8) for tournaments. I also recently acquired the new 1250 F2 mach 1-1/8 and will be trying that out for tournaments.

Notes: I do not notice any difference in "velocity" to the target between 1160 and 1260- which pleasantly surprised me. Distance also not an issue vs. hotter shells.

Not surprised to hear that 1160 was also the default shell for Jon Kruger (while he was sponsored by Remington). Perhaps someone here can dispel this rumor.


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 Post subject: Re: shot velocity
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:47 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 9:07 pm
Posts: 2310
[quote="Crushinem"]B&P 1160 is a superb shell, I would be using it 100% but had a station where I could hear it ping the dome of the target and not break it (slow trap shot @ 35yrds). After 10 tries and the same exact result, I then popped in a 1260 BP and smoked them every time.

So now I practice exclusively with 1160, find it a joy and have settled on the 1260BP (1-1/8) for tournaments. I also recently acquired the new 1250 F2 mach 1-1/8 and will be trying that out for tournaments.

Notes: I do not notice any difference in "velocity" to the target between 1160 and 1260- which pleasantly surprised me. Distance also not an issue vs. hotter shells.

Not surprised to hear that 1160 was also the default shell for Jon Kruger (while he was sponsored by Remington). Perhaps someone here can dispel this rumor.[/quote

Yes, IMO there is a difference in performance. I will be going with the B&P F2 Mach at Nationals. I think it comparable to the AA HDCP & the Aguila HDCP. B&P will have a facility again there and will be interesting to hear what they say about Fiocchi and the possibility of them opening up the Rio Mfg. plant in Marshall, Tx.


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 Post subject: Re: shot velocity
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:37 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:21 pm
Posts: 677
Always read about “crushing” targets and advantages of high velocity. Fact is target break depends on two things one you can’t control other you can.

Out of shooters control is presentation. Fast spinning target close to the trap comes apart easier, face catches more pellets than edge.

You can control and probably the most significant factor, pellets on target. Tighten chokes targets break better. Larger shot load works too.

Initial velocity has little to do with how targets break. And not hit they don’t break making recoil and shooter fatigue a significant factor.

Bass


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 Post subject: Re: shot velocity
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:43 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:12 am
Posts: 5604
I'll say it again. These targets come out of a box marked fragile as eggs. If you ever loaded a trap you know how fragile they are. Don't conflate shotgun pellets with single projectile rifle or pistol ammo. Don't blame your ammo, be honest with yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: shot velocity
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:57 am 
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lt0026 wrote:
I'll say it again. These targets come out of a box marked fragile as eggs. If you ever loaded a trap you know how fragile they are. Don't conflate shotgun pellets with single projectile rifle or pistol ammo. Don't blame your ammo, be honest with yourself.


+1 {hs#

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 Post subject: Re: shot velocity
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:17 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:12 am
Posts: 5604
If you hear pellets pinging off a target at 35 yards with muzzle blast and ear protection on that's pretty good.
:shock:


Last edited by lt0026 on Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: shot velocity
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:34 am 
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Location: South Central Pennsylvania
lt0026 wrote:
I'll say it again. These targets come out of a box marked fragile as eggs. If you ever loaded a trap you know how fragile they are. Don't conflate shotgun pellets with single projectile rifle or pistol ammo. Don't blame your ammo, be honest with yourself.



Agree, have to be careful when loading them.

I have found 1 oz at around 1,200 to be a good compromise for breaking targets without beating myself up. Even 7/8 oz are ok at Skeet.

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 Post subject: Re: shot velocity
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:14 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:12 am
Posts: 5604
It's not like looking for deep penetration or breaking bones. Clay targets aren't dangerous game.




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