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 Post subject: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:33 am 
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Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 6:51 am
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After spending a couple days shooting and observing at a northern Illinois club, I noticed more than one, two man squads shooting a registered event. I thought two man squads were not allowed.




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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:38 am 
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Most of the clubs in my area don't allow 2 people shooting together.

It is OK when the club has trappers.

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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:13 am 
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NSCA requires a minimum of 3; however, I see that rule broken all the time

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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:07 am 
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Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:48 pm
Posts: 554
Rules require a minimum of 3 with squadded events, and only 2 or more on European rotation. Definitely a loophole that needs to be fixed. I have read of some State associations that have taken care of it themselves. Should be high on the list for NSCA to adjust.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:19 am 
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MTR wrote:
Rules require a minimum of 3 with squadded events, and only 2 or more on European rotation.


This would seem to answer the OP's question as I believe the event was Euro rotation.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:48 am 
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Posts: 397
Location: USA
2020 NSCA Rules & Regulations

http://nsca.nssa-nsca.org/wp-content/up ... ookWEB.pdf

D.
SHOOTING ORDER/ROTATIONS
1. Format—Contestants shall proceed through the course and
competition in one of the following formats:
a. European Rotation—Individual competitors or groups of two (2) through six (6) competitors will proceed to the various stations at random. Groups may shoot in any or- der of rotation selected by the shooters and may change the rotation from field to field. In European Rotation, a shoot start and shoot end time will be established. It will be the responsibility of each shooter to complete the en- tire event between these times.
b. Squadding—At the discretion of the Shoot Officials, groups of three (3) to six (6) shooters will be formed to proceed from field-to-field in a fixed sequence. Unless specified by Shoot Officials, squads may shoot in any or- der of rotation selected by the shooters and may change the rotation from field to field.

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Last edited by remdog1187 on Mon Sep 07, 2020 11:09 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:50 am 
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Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:12 am
Posts: 5590
Was this one of those self score events? Where the friends and relatives keep score for each other.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:52 am 
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lt0026 wrote:
Was this one of those self score events? Where the friends and relatives keep score for each other.


What do you think?.....


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 11:32 am 
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Two-person squads are allowed per the rules, but it invites cheating when a club chooses to allow it...

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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:02 pm 
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JacksBack wrote:
Two-person squads are allowed per the rules, but it invites cheating when a club chooses to allow it...


How does it allow for cheating any more than a squad of 3, 4, or 5 close friends all shooting together?

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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:09 pm 
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oneounceload wrote:
JacksBack wrote:
Two-person squads are allowed per the rules, but it invites cheating when a club chooses to allow it...


How does it allow for cheating any more than a squad of 3, 4, or 5 close friends all shooting together?


Obviously any "group" of shooters set on cheating is going to cheat. It's just a lot easier for two person squads to start seeing each others chips...

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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 1:04 pm 
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Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:02 am
Posts: 2470
Location: KS
If the purpose of three or more on on a squad is to assure scoring honesty, it’s probably a waste of time because, as Jack noted, cheaters will cheat.

The best solution is probably the one employed by CPSA; all registered events employ qualified trappers/scorers. Unfortunately, in the US that would probably do away with local registered shoots because the clubs cannot obtain or cannot afford qualified staff at a target price that shooters are willing to pay.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 1:12 pm 
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Random squadding of same-class shooters at SYO's has proven effective as it puts up a roadblock to chip-beggars. A lot of shooters don't like it because they don't get to shoot with their regular buddies.

Another thing we did at a 2-day money shoot at our local club that worked quite well, was a random re-squadding on the second day for just the top 15 shooters from day 1. They got squadded in order of their day 1 finish into the first three squads.

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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 2:54 pm 
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JacksBack wrote:
Random squadding of same-class shooters at SYO's has proven effective as it puts up a roadblock to chip-beggars. A lot of shooters don't like it because they don't get to shoot with their regular buddies.

Another thing we did at a 2-day money shoot at our local club that worked quite well, was a random re-squadding on the second day for just the top 15 shooters from day 1. They got squadded in order of their day 1 finish into the first three squads.


Yep and if you eliminate that, you will eliminate a lot of participation. It would be better to have refs that aren't going to tolerate chip begging or badgering, which, unfortunately does not seem to be the case since most clubs utilize around here use young kids with little to no training/experience.

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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:06 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Wed Sep 18, 2013 5:32 pm
Posts: 13
I too have noticed some two-man squads going out sometimes in the afternoon where there might not be enough people for three men, And then I look at the results and see that one or both shot well above the norm and it makes me wonder I’m sure it does not go on noticed


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:50 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:12 am
Posts: 5590
I doesn't get noticed because shoot management for the most part doesn't care. They take money and hand out scorecards. That's all that matters. And shoot management in most cases doesn't have a backbone to do anything about cheating. I've seen two person squads father and son, friends and relatives, mom and dad (non participants) keeping score from the golf cart, do overs and pairs being shot report instead of true. I goes on. The people reporting this stuff are frowned upon more than the cheaters.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:43 pm 
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Location: S.E. Wisconsin
Then do something about it. VOLUNTEER to be a scorer, for an hour before/after you shoot! Let the excuses begin now, throw me under the bus again I dont care. You all have excuses so you are part of the problem by letting it continue.

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:48 pm 
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Many club owners don't want trappers even for free because they are afraid of low turnout. Little do they realize it's pretty much a wash. Many people won't come because of the cheating going on a SYO.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:56 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
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lt0026 wrote:
Many club owners don't want trappers even for free because they are afraid of low turnout. Little do they realize it's pretty much a wash. Many people won't come because of the cheating going on a SYO.


That’s complete hogwash.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:19 pm 
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lt0026 wrote:
Many club owners don't want trappers even for free because they are afraid of low turnout. Little do they realize it's pretty much a wash. Many people won't come because of the cheating going on a SYO.



No club wants to have a reputation as a safe haven for cheaters.
So I agree with Rooster, Hog wash.


Steve



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