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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:58 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
Posts: 5852
lt0026 wrote:
You can spin it however you wish. Everyone knows a suspicious score or a big form reversal when they see it. With scorekeepers, nothing to debate. Case closed. You can make excuses all you wish. Trust but verify.


Joe McCarthy lives......




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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:22 pm 
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YevetS wrote:
bdog58 wrote:
So I looked at the scores.

M 3 at 83, 2 at 82, 3 at 81. AA 79, 71. A 73, 70. B 69, 66. C 91, 64. D 84, 63.

Come up with your own conclusions.



He was a first time SC shooter that should have declared to a higher class.


We spend a lot of time accusing lower class shooters of cheating but could care less about Masters that only shoot a 65. Everybody has their day, good and bad.

Steve


Why should he? He played by the rules; much the same way that M class shooters who haven't broken 70 in 4 years and refuse the downclass do the same. So if those M class shooters don't pose any issue, why would this guy?

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The bitterness of poor quality is remembered long after the sweetness of low price has faded from memory, Aldo Gucci

Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience, George Carlin


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:34 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
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I don’t see any reason to think these two youngsters cheated......but if you can’t see the difference between sandbagging and a has been, you’re not getting it.

Bottom line, over a career of shooting competitively, known cases of cheating are of such little consequence, they shouldn’t merit any real thought in your individual thoughts about your own shooting. If they do, you’re probably not cut out to enjoy a very, very enjoyable pursuit.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:39 pm 
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Oh, I can easily see the difference; the has beens don't though.........young kids with good eyes coming up fast through the ranks does not make them sandbaggers; it makes them lucky that day, for that moment

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The bitterness of poor quality is remembered long after the sweetness of low price has faded from memory, Aldo Gucci

Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience, George Carlin


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:56 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
Posts: 5852
I agree, that’s why the odd ‘great day’, especially for the younger shooters doesn’t bother me one bit. Never has.......anyone that is bothered by stuff like that needs thicker skin.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:58 pm 
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Posts: 22679
then we agree more than we disagree........... {hs#

_________________
The bitterness of poor quality is remembered long after the sweetness of low price has faded from memory, Aldo Gucci

Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience, George Carlin


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:01 pm 
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Location: S.E. Wisconsin
oneounceload wrote:
YevetS wrote:
bdog58 wrote:
So I looked at the scores.

M 3 at 83, 2 at 82, 3 at 81. AA 79, 71. A 73, 70. B 69, 66. C 91, 64. D 84, 63.

Come up with your own conclusions.



He was a first time SC shooter that should have declared to a higher class.


We spend a lot of time accusing lower class shooters of cheating but could care less about Masters that only shoot a 65. Everybody has their day, good and bad.

Steve



Why should he? He played by the rules; much the same way that M class shooters who haven't broken 70 in 4 years and refuse the downclass do the same. So if those M class shooters don't pose any issue, why would this guy?


Would it have been better if I said "could have declared to a higher class"?
I was just trying to give a reason as to why a D class shooter shot an 85.

Steve

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I repair MEC presses. PM me.
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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:08 pm 
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I caught the same crap when I first shot a registered tournament; after years of shooting "targets only" I caved to my friends. Started in D class and won enough punches in that first shoot to be in C class the next weekend; didn't have a NSCA number until the several shoots later where I won enough to be in B class; was the first of my friends to make A and then AA; then I somewhat stopped while they all took lessons and shot 10X the targets; some passed me, some have caught up. Point is, I did well, didn't declare up, was called a sandbagger because I played by the rules. No reason a D class shooter can't shoot an 85 or even take HOA; all it does is piss off the wannabe M class when they get outshot by a D or C class shooter

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The bitterness of poor quality is remembered long after the sweetness of low price has faded from memory, Aldo Gucci

Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience, George Carlin


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 10:23 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
Posts: 5852
oneounceload wrote:
then we agree more than we disagree........... {hs#


No doubt.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:00 am 
Limited Edition

Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 10:02 pm
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https://app.scorechaser.com/tournament- ... ODULRGL0U1

As someone who shot the course... It was tough.

Both shooters, jr. trap league trained, shooting together, alone, and both C and D class shooters having a trashcan lid day, without seeing show pairs, and beating 6 past state champs by 10+ birds. The stars must have been lined up just right. *!*


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:35 am 
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Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
Posts: 5852
Very possible. I have a friend who’s been shooting sporting for years......as in more than 20 (the rookie).

I’ve shot on his squad quite a number of times over the years. Great squadmate, never saw him break more than 85. Ever. Until the day he uncorked his inner self, and posted a 95, good for HOA. Close to 100 entries that day, at least 7 in M class, all but one a former state/regional champion. There were 4 scores in the 90’s that day, but he won by 3.

Just say ‘great shooting’ sincerely, and with a smile. Then go work on keeping your own Poop in order.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:17 am 
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Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:12 am
Posts: 5590
Rooster booster wrote:
lt0026 wrote:
You can spin it however you wish. Everyone knows a suspicious score or a big form reversal when they see it. With scorekeepers, nothing to debate. Case closed. You can make excuses all you wish. Trust but verify.


Joe McCarthy lives......

Wrong again. Old Russian proverb used frequently by Ronald Reagan. Trust but verify. Did those trap shooters ever shoot ATA? If so certain classification rules are in play. That shooter with the high score is a 27 yard shooter as per the ATA.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:25 am 
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Joined: Mon May 20, 2019 9:53 am
Posts: 1321
I'm a bit confused on what happened here. Was the event where the C and D class shooters suddenly figured it out the same one that had the majority of M class in the low 80s? and this was an SYO?


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:42 am 
Tournament Grade
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Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2016 11:23 pm
Posts: 233
Location: Colorado
birdhunter39 wrote:
I'm a bit confused on what happened here. Was the event where the C and D class shooters suddenly figured it out the same one that had the majority of M class in the low 80s? and this was an SYO?

Yes, C Class shooter was HOA 91 followed by D Class shooter first runner up 84 while 6 State Champions who shot the course could not do better than 83. So yea, they must have figured it out. Edit to add: the winners only had 200 birds counted on their machine counting card. When asked if they looked at show pairs they said “Yes, the machine must have messed up “. So make of it what you will. I have no dog in the fight but I’m guessing the guys who played the options are a bit skeptical .


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:06 am 
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Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
Posts: 5852
lt0026 wrote:
Rooster booster wrote:
lt0026 wrote:
You can spin it however you wish. Everyone knows a suspicious score or a big form reversal when they see it. With scorekeepers, nothing to debate. Case closed. You can make excuses all you wish. Trust but verify.


Joe McCarthy lives......

Wrong again. Old Russian proverb used frequently by Ronald Reagan. Trust but verify. Did those trap shooters ever shoot ATA? If so certain classification rules are in play. That shooter with the high score is a 27 yard shooter as per the ATA.


One; this ain’t Russia. Two; we ain’t talking about trapshooting. Try to keep up, Comrade.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:12 am 
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Location: Omaha, NE
fatguywithafirearm wrote:
birdhunter39 wrote:
I'm a bit confused on what happened here. Was the event where the C and D class shooters suddenly figured it out the same one that had the majority of M class in the low 80s? and this was an SYO?

Yes, C Class shooter was HOA 91 followed by D Class shooter first runner up 84 while 6 State Champions who shot the course could not do better than 83. So yea, they must have figured it out. Edit to add: the winners only had 200 birds counted on their machine counting card. When asked if they looked at show pairs they said “Yes, the machine must have messed up “. So make of it what you will. I have no dog in the fight but I’m guessing the guys who played the options are a bit skeptical .


With regard to the above situation, it could very well have been two shooters having a great day, but given the fact they weren't honest about the show pairs, it does call into question what really went on.

Nothing much anyone can do about it, make a mental note and move on.

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Jim

Eye on the rock, head on the stock.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:15 am 
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Joined: Mon May 20, 2019 9:53 am
Posts: 1321
fatguywithafirearm wrote:
birdhunter39 wrote:
I'm a bit confused on what happened here. Was the event where the C and D class shooters suddenly figured it out the same one that had the majority of M class in the low 80s? and this was an SYO?

Yes, C Class shooter was HOA 91 followed by D Class shooter first runner up 84 while 6 State Champions who shot the course could not do better than 83. So yea, they must have figured it out. Edit to add: the winners only had 200 birds counted on their machine counting card. When asked if they looked at show pairs they said “Yes, the machine must have messed up “. So make of it what you will. I have no dog in the fight but I’m guessing the guys who played the options are a bit skeptical .



Ok thanks for the clarification. Pretty darned clear what went on there in my mind. Time for those guys to move on from NSCA.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:23 am 
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If those in attendance who suspect cheating alerted shoot management, then it is now in their court to handle.

_________________
The bitterness of poor quality is remembered long after the sweetness of low price has faded from memory, Aldo Gucci

Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience, George Carlin


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:23 am 
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Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:12 am
Posts: 5590
Lets see if Known Ability is used for these guys in the next shoot.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:56 am 
Limited Edition

Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 10:02 pm
Posts: 305
Another buddy had an interesting theory; Coming from trap they’re used to shooting in the 80s and 90s. When they saw the difficulty of the course they might have ”padded their scorecards” to keep from being embarrassed, never figuring they’d win the whole shooting match. I don’t know. Hopefully it was legit.

However, the club might want to check their Promatic system since it shorted them at least 30 birds.




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