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 Post subject: Re: shot velocity
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:29 am 
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Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:21 pm
Posts: 665
When I hear the pros talking about how their sponsored shell “ crushes “ targets BS flag pops up & discount everything else they say. Better they say XYZ company treats me well and don’t make ridiculous claims .

Bass




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 Post subject: Re: shot velocity
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:46 am 
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Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:12 am
Posts: 5530
Exactly. Crushing targets has more to do with ability than shells. Especially for the average shooter.


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 Post subject: Re: shot velocity
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:33 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 16, 2018 7:55 am
Posts: 717
Rooster booster wrote:
StephenK wrote:
Higher velocity/speed more energy on shot to target. Better break at distance. Shot hardness is another factor.


Not quite true......especially at medium to long distances to the target.


Meh.......shot hardness has alot to do with it, harder shot more consistent patterns, meaning better patterns at distance, also what choke and how tight plays into it. Higher speeds and higher velocity do tend to lead much more violent and harder breaks. I get very consistent breaks at distance with my Fiocchi Super Crushers 1oz 1300 8's in the high antimony shot. It's all I shoot now for registered events, for practice I use 1350's 7/8 shooting dynamics.

I'm also thinking the OP is trying to be the Bryson Dechambeu of the shotgun world

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 Post subject: Re: shot velocity
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 1:22 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:18 am
Posts: 22
gdub41 wrote:
Rooster booster wrote:
StephenK wrote:
Higher velocity/speed more energy on shot to target. Better break at distance. Shot hardness is another factor.


Not quite true......especially at medium to long distances to the target.


Meh.......shot hardness has alot to do with it, harder shot more consistent patterns, meaning better patterns at distance, also what choke and how tight plays into it. Higher speeds and higher velocity do tend to lead much more violent and harder breaks. I get very consistent breaks at distance with my Fiocchi Super Crushers 1oz 1300 8's in the high antimony shot. It's all I shoot now for registered events, for practice I use 1350's 7/8 shooting dynamics.

I'm also thinking the OP is trying to be the Bryson Dechambeu of the shotgun world


not sure what the Bryson Dechambau reference is, was just thinking about the math and thought it might save someone the time.

cheers


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 Post subject: Re: shot velocity
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:56 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 9:07 pm
Posts: 2300
A test for you to be the judge with your own gun and choke:

AA Heavy Target vs AA Super Sport

I've talked to Winchester and they said it's the same shot.

See if you can tell any difference other than recoil on breaking the clay on the same presentation, 40 yds. +-. then you will know what to do.


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 Post subject: Re: shot velocity
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:52 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 16, 2018 7:55 am
Posts: 717
Bryson Dechambeu is a professional golfer on the tour that has been known to do majorly complicated math problems in his head on the fly, calculating things like launch angle, rate of spin, degrees of fade and draw, and things like that.

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 Post subject: Re: shot velocity
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:22 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
Posts: 5732
gdub41 wrote:
Rooster booster wrote:
StephenK wrote:
Higher velocity/speed more energy on shot to target. Better break at distance. Shot hardness is another factor.


Not quite true......especially at medium to long distances to the target.


Meh.......shot hardness has alot to do with it, harder shot more consistent patterns, meaning better patterns at distance, also what choke and how tight plays into it. Higher speeds and higher velocity do tend to lead much more violent and harder breaks. I get very consistent breaks at distance with my Fiocchi Super Crushers 1oz 1300 8's in the high antimony shot. It's all I shoot now for registered events, for practice I use 1350's 7/8 shooting dynamics.

I'm also thinking the OP is trying to be the Bryson Dechambeu of the shotgun world


Not really. And I’m a big fan of quality components, and have used them for years. More like decades. We’re talking shotguns here, not precision rifle shooting.

The core matters. Use enough choke, even with semi bargain basement loads, learn to put the core on target. That’s been proven by much better shooters than us chickens on this thread. Use the best equipment you can get your hands on.......but learning to put a dinner size core on target will get you where you want to go faster than believing you’re missing those 50yd loopers because of crappy shot.


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 Post subject: Re: shot velocity
PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:14 am 
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Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:21 pm
Posts: 665
Well said

Bass


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 Post subject: Re: shot velocity
PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:49 am 
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Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2020 2:22 pm
Posts: 431
Rooster booster wrote:
gdub41 wrote:
Rooster booster wrote:

Not quite true......especially at medium to long distances to the target.


Meh.......shot hardness has alot to do with it, harder shot more consistent patterns, meaning better patterns at distance, also what choke and how tight plays into it. Higher speeds and higher velocity do tend to lead much more violent and harder breaks. I get very consistent breaks at distance with my Fiocchi Super Crushers 1oz 1300 8's in the high antimony shot. It's all I shoot now for registered events, for practice I use 1350's 7/8 shooting dynamics.

I'm also thinking the OP is trying to be the Bryson Dechambeu of the shotgun world


Not really. And I’m a big fan of quality components, and have used them for years. More like decades. We’re talking shotguns here, not precision rifle shooting.

The core matters. Use enough choke, even with semi bargain basement loads, learn to put the core on target. That’s been proven by much better shooters than us chickens on this thread. Use the best equipment you can get your hands on.......but learning to put a dinner size core on target will get you where you want to go faster than believing you’re missing those 50yd loopers because of crappy shot.


Your advice is correct but obvious an incomplete. It reminds me of that popular phrase, "...if I do my part." Well, duh! Of course you have to try to hit the target. Of course you have to do your part. And learning how to do that is fundamental. But if it were just about knowing how to center shot on the target, we might as well be talking about rifles instead of shotguns. The shot cloud provides opportunities for target strikes that a rifle bullet does not. Considering how to maximize that advantage isn't wrong. And that is what we are talking about here. Patterning and POI distribution adjustment for your style of shooting. More pellets. Denser shot cloud. Harder pellets. Faster pellets. More energy imparted with each pellet strike. If you don't want to think about that stuff, fine. Sure, you will still be dealing with the single most important part of breaking targets, putting the center of the shot pattern in the right place. But you will be giving up on the significant assistance to success that comes from optimizing your equipment. Note that I haven't said to buy the most expensive of everything you can. Optimization doesn't have to mean expensive. But it doesn't happen on its own. You have to think about it and work at it.

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 Post subject: Re: shot velocity
PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:34 am 
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Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:02 am
Posts: 2463
Location: KS
For most of us in shotgunning, the "slop" introduced by personal inconsistency overwhelms any benefit imparted by more shot, harder shot, or faster shot. Presuming reasonable fit and a gun that shoots where it is pointed, the performance benefit gained from tweaking equipment is at best marginal compared to the benefit gained from (to use Sera's phrase) "learning to shoot."

If you want to fixate on gear and ammunition, bench rest is your game.


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 Post subject: Re: shot velocity
PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:06 am 
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Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2016 3:48 pm
Posts: 327
Who was it said "all cartridges are better than 95% pf shooters"

Agree with this "Exactly. Crushing targets has more to do with ability than shells. Especially for the average shooter"


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 Post subject: Re: shot velocity
PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:07 am 
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mwr01 wrote:
For most of us in shotgunning, the "slop" introduced by personal inconsistency overwhelms any benefit imparted by more shot, harder shot, or faster shot. Presuming reasonable fit and a gun that shoots where it is pointed, the performance benefit gained from tweaking equipment is at best marginal compared to the benefit gained from (to use Sera's phrase) "learning to shoot."

If you want to fixate on gear and ammunition, bench rest is your game.


Amen {RO {RO

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 Post subject: Re: shot velocity
PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:20 am 
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Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2020 2:22 pm
Posts: 431
Just because one thing is more important than another, does not mean it is the only thing that is important. Success rarely comes from focusing on only one aspect of a problem. Building overall success from the sum of many components is the best plan.

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 Post subject: Re: shot velocity
PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:23 am 
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Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2010 12:49 pm
Posts: 3176
When all things are covered and accounted for (particularly shooting ability), there’s no doubt in my mind that when you are shooting at distances over 35/40 yards, the quality of shot makes a difference. Enough so, that it justifies the added cost factor. At least for me, anyways.

When talking 30/35 yards or less, the quality of the shotshell is less important, and for many doesn’t justify the added cost factor.

No shotshell is going to make up for a misplaced swarm of pellets. But for me, those 40 to 50 yard big boy targets we are seeing more and more of break more times when I packing my B&P Moch loads.

YRMV


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 Post subject: Re: shot velocity
PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:27 am 
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Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2010 12:49 pm
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Auldthymer wrote:
Just because one thing is more important than another, does not mean it is the only thing that is important. Success rarely comes from focusing on only one aspect of a problem. Building overall success from the sum of many components is the best plan.


That’s very well put. Totally agree.


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 Post subject: Re: shot velocity
PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:17 am 
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Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:21 pm
Posts: 665
It’s true you need to cover all aspects Shotshell included. But excessive recoil and muzzle blast fatigues the shooter and performance suffers. High velocity has little advantage and does not come close to negative effect of recoil.

Rule any shooting sport, gun/ammunition combination that delivers adequate ballistics with the least recoil will shoot the highest scores. Key word is adequate “crushed” target scored same as broken target.

Bass


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 Post subject: Re: shot velocity
PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:24 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
Posts: 5732
mwr01 wrote:
For most of us in shotgunning, the "slop" introduced by personal inconsistency overwhelms any benefit imparted by more shot, harder shot, or faster shot. Presuming reasonable fit and a gun that shoots where it is pointed, the performance benefit gained from tweaking equipment is at best marginal compared to the benefit gained from (to use Sera's phrase) "learning to shoot."

If you want to fixate on gear and ammunition, bench rest is your game.


Absolutely!


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 Post subject: Re: shot velocity
PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:26 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
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Auldthymer wrote:
Just because one thing is more important than another, does not mean it is the only thing that is important. Success rarely comes from focusing on only one aspect of a problem. Building overall success from the sum of many components is the best plan.


Roberto, I’ve been working on all of it for more than 50 years now.......you?


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 Post subject: Re: shot velocity
PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:26 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2010 12:49 pm
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Bass3 wrote:
It’s true you need to cover all aspects Shotshell included. But excessive recoil and muzzle blast fatigues the shooter and performance suffers. High velocity has little advantage and does not come close to negative effect of recoil.

Rule any shooting sport, gun/ammunition combination that delivers adequate ballistics with the least recoil will shoot the highest scores. Key word is adequate “crushed” target scored same as broken target.

Bass


Totally agree with your points about velocity. But component quality is a different story. High antimony pellets on longer range targets make a big difference, everything else being equal.


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 Post subject: Re: shot velocity
PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:03 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:02 pm
Posts: 154
Auldthymer wrote:

It reminds me of that popular phrase, "...if I do my part."


I don't always do that. If I did I could break all the targets with a .410.

Since I don't, I'm looking for all the little advantages that might help when I almost do my part.




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