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 Post subject: Advice needed
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 6:33 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 3:14 pm
Posts: 818
Looking for a little advice on improving my son’s sporting clays score. He’s been shooting for a couple months now in high school events where we do a triple event (SC, trap and skeet). He can shoot lights out on trap and skeet....usually 24 out of 25 on average — no problem in that area. However, he absolutely sucks on sporting clays. He shot a 28 this past tournament. Shot a 60 before that. I cannot figure this one out. I’ve tried every choke and shell.

I’ve had him with 3 instructors and going to try a 4th one next week. Seems like he’s getting worse. He’s now getting conflicting information so I going to handle myself. Thinking about getting his eyes checked, but he doesn’t miss a dove when hunting. It’s got to be something with eye domination, leading, or gun fit. Not sure.

I’m looking for some drills I can do with him at home. I have a very large track of land and thought about just walking through woods and hand throwing targets against tree background. He’s struggling and it’s getting in his head at this point.

Any drills or advice would be appreciated. He’s shooting beretta 686 sp1. Age 15. No recoil issues and no flinching.

Thanks jed




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 Post subject: Re: Advice needed
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 6:45 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
Posts: 5725
You took him to three different instructors in a couple of months?.......

I’d first make sure any instructors check out, have some sporting experience. But if he’s hitting 23-24’s on both trap and skeet, the issues prob not his eyes. Is he trying to shoot sporting with a hard mount like skt and trap? If so, he’s likely way behind on picking up the target visually. Just one thought, but I see trap and skeet shooters try to get locked into their gun on the sporting course.

Really tough to do, if that’s how he’s trying to shoot. Hard to say from ‘here’:-)


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 Post subject: Re: Advice needed
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:05 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 3:14 pm
Posts: 818
Rooster booster wrote:
You took him to three different instructors in a couple of months?.......

I’d first make sure any instructors check out, have some sporting experience. But if he’s hitting 23-24’s on both trap and skeet, the issues prob not his eyes. Is he trying to shoot sporting with a hard mount like skt and trap? If so, he’s likely way behind on picking up the target visually. Just one thought, but I see trap and skeet shooters try to get locked into their gun on the sporting course.

Really tough to do, if that’s how he’s trying to shoot. Hard to say from ‘here’:-)


Yep. I know it’s hard to help sitting behind computer. Two of the instructors are on his team as coaches. The other was a guy I met during a tournament who offered to help. The instructors are pretty good and the other kids are doing better and catching on.

Yes, he is trying to shoot SC with hard mount. And you have a very good point that I thought the same thing as you because of dove hunting (throw up and shoot). That’s going to be my next thing to have him try. I agree, his eyes should be good since he’s almost perfect on skeet. Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: Advice needed
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:09 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2015 5:52 pm
Posts: 532
Location: Michigan
"He’s now getting conflicting information" so what conflicting information is he getting ?

"I’ve had him with 3 instructors and going to try a 4th one next week" 3 instructors and they haven't checked eye dominance and gun fit ? With so many instructors and now moving on to the 4th IMO the kid might be getting pushed faster into improvement than he should, maybe peer pressure ?

If your son averages 23-24 in skeet & trap I would say he is a dam good shot for his age. SC has much more to learn than skeet & trap. How about one good coach and some time ?


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 Post subject: Re: Advice needed
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:20 pm 
*Proud to be a*
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Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2010 1:27 am
Posts: 8144
Location: Silicon Valley
A few simple questions:

1) What type of gun is he shooting, auto or O/U, high rib or flat rib, sloped comb stock or parallel comb stock?
2) Does the stock on his gun have an adjustable comb and/or adjustable shim washers for cast and drop?
3) How many inches above point of aim does the pattern center hit at 30 yards with a F choke in the gun, with him shooting from a standing and not supported position?

My guess out of the gate is his current target gun is shooting pretty high. I'd also guess that his most problematic targets in sporting clays are dropping, rising or curling targets, whereas he does fine with trap away or normal crossing targets? Skeet and trap are games where a high POI, even as high as 80% to 100% high can work just fine. But it does not work so well for sporting for most people.

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When the mind is right, the body will find a way...


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 Post subject: Re: Advice needed
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:29 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:06 am
Posts: 88
It’s not the shells, unless you are pounding him with heavy shells. 2 3/4 dram 1oz for all the disciplines will work fine.

Skeet is a fast gun speed game. Young eyes can may also shoot trap with fast gun speed if their hold points are inexperienced. I would bet that your son is not connecting with the birds speed in sporting clays, but trying to shoot them with excessive gun speed. But of course this is just a guess!

The best thing I ever did to improve my sporting clays was to not shoot skeet as much. I had learned one gun speed and that just does not work in sporting clays.

Also, buy a copy of Anthony Matarese’s dvd on shooting sporting clays. He is simply the best.

_________________
NSCA #: 549500

Make Sporting Clays Great Again - MANDATORY DOWNCLASSING!

Primary Gun-K80 w/factory titanium chokes
Backup Gun-Browning BPS
Subgauge Gun-K80 w/Carrier Barrels
Ammo-Whatever is On Sale at 1200fps or less
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 Post subject: Re: Advice needed
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:32 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 3:14 pm
Posts: 818
Rack-N-Roy wrote:
"He’s now getting conflicting information" so what conflicting information is he getting ?

"I’ve had him with 3 instructors and going to try a 4th one next week" 3 instructors and they haven't checked eye dominance and gun fit ? With so many instructors and now moving on to the 4th IMO the kid might be getting pushed faster into improvement than he should, maybe peer pressure ?

If your son averages 23-24 in skeet & trap I would say he is a dam good shot for his age. SC has much more to learn than skeet & trap. How about one good coach and some time ?


Thanks. Good advice. The conflicting information like sustained lead, follow through, hard mount or not, hold point, break point...”you leading too much...you’re behind it.... move your feet, butt etc....” he’s mixing up the three events I think. Information overload, like you said. Then throw in his buddies trying to offer their advice too.

They checked eye dominance and gun fit the first day, but he switched guns and I think he is neutral eye dominant instead of right eye dominant because he says he has to close his left eye to hit the skeet and trap. The new gun was fitted by dealer so he should be good there otherwise he couldn’t hit anything. He says it feels good and the pattern board looks good.

He shoots consistent 24 out of 25 almost every time. He shoots dove with same gun and doesn’t miss...its amazing how good he shoots real birds.

I was also thinking it may be color or background on SC course. He has trouble sometimes picking up target.


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 Post subject: Re: Advice needed
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:38 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 3:14 pm
Posts: 818
JacksBack wrote:
A few simple questions:

1) What type of gun is he shooting, auto or O/U, high rib or flat rib, sloped comb stock or parallel comb stock?
2) Does the stock on his gun have an adjustable comb and/or adjustable shim washers for cast and drop?
3) How many inches above point of aim does the pattern center hit at 30 yards with a F choke in the gun, with him shooting from a standing and not supported position?

My guess out of the gate is his current target gun is shooting pretty high. I'd also guess that his most problematic targets in sporting clays are dropping, rising or curling targets, whereas he does fine with trap away or normal crossing targets? Skeet and trap are games where a high POI, even as high as 80% to 100% high can work just fine. But it does not work so well for sporting for most people.


Beretta 686 sp1 sporting. Basic gun out of box. No comb adjustment.

We tested on pattern board at 22 yards and pattern was about 55/45 above with IC choke in standing position. Have not tried F yet.

Yes, you are correct on problem targets. No problems with crossing or going away.

Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: Advice needed
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:44 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 3:14 pm
Posts: 818
Hwcn wrote:
It’s not the shells, unless you are pounding him with heavy shells. 2 3/4 dram 1oz for all the disciplines will work fine.

Skeet is a fast gun speed game. Young eyes can may also shoot trap with fast gun speed if their hold points are inexperienced. I would bet that your son is not connecting with the birds speed in sporting clays, but trying to shoot them with excessive gun speed. But of course this is just a guess!

The best thing I ever did to improve my sporting clays was to not shoot skeet as much. I had learned one gun speed and that just does not work in sporting clays.

Also, buy a copy of Anthony Matarese’s dvd on shooting sporting clays. He is simply the best.



Pulling him away from skeet would cause him to have a melt down. He loves it. He hates SC for obvious reasons. Haha.

I also believe one of his problems is that we jumped in this sport too quick and instructors were limited with time to really do any good. We have one more school tournament and I promised him we would slow down and fix it. He thought since he was a crack shot on dove field, he could hit some little orange targets. At least we won’t go hungry!


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 Post subject: Re: Advice needed
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:46 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 11:51 am
Posts: 1149
Skeet shooting is shooting same speed at targets. Sporting clays has variations, plus high and low. In today's world you can't shoot well is Sporting Clays shooting one method. You need to learn at least 3. Learn the 3 on a skeet field, then take your practice to Sporting Clays, preferably with someone that knows targets and how to approach...


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 Post subject: Re: Advice needed
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:24 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:06 am
Posts: 88
jed1894 wrote:
Hwcn wrote:
It’s not the shells, unless you are pounding him with heavy shells. 2 3/4 dram 1oz for all the disciplines will work fine.

Skeet is a fast gun speed game. Young eyes can may also shoot trap with fast gun speed if their hold points are inexperienced. I would bet that your son is not connecting with the birds speed in sporting clays, but trying to shoot them with excessive gun speed. But of course this is just a guess!

The best thing I ever did to improve my sporting clays was to not shoot skeet as much. I had learned one gun speed and that just does not work in sporting clays.

Also, buy a copy of Anthony Matarese’s dvd on shooting sporting clays. He is simply the best.



Pulling him away from skeet would cause him to have a melt down. He loves it. He hates SC for obvious reasons. Haha.

I also believe one of his problems is that we jumped in this sport too quick and instructors were limited with time to really do any good. We have one more school tournament and I promised him we would slow down and fix it. He thought since he was a crack shot on dove field, he could hit some little orange targets. At least we won’t go hungry!


Not suggesting you pull him away from skeet, was just sharing my experience because sporting clays is my focus. I am suggesting that he my not be in sync with sporting clay birds because he is using too fast of gun speed. Through his frustration, he may also be looking at the beads to measure leads. If he does both of these things together, he could be seeing too much lead, but could still be shooting behind because of a dead gun.

What is really disconcerting is that he shoots really well at both skeet and trap and it is not translating at all to sporting. And the fact that none of the instructors can figure out why, to me, would be a red flag in their teaching abilities. I’d find a well regarded instructor and go from there. I’ll bet it is a relatively easy fix, but you need the right coach.

_________________
NSCA #: 549500

Make Sporting Clays Great Again - MANDATORY DOWNCLASSING!

Primary Gun-K80 w/factory titanium chokes
Backup Gun-Browning BPS
Subgauge Gun-K80 w/Carrier Barrels
Ammo-Whatever is On Sale at 1200fps or less
All guns choked Magic


Last edited by Hwcn on Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Advice needed
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:29 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
Posts: 5725
Gotta see em to hit em, especially in the ‘new to him’ world of sporting.

Just try having him try a soft mount, so he can pick up the target sooner, and work with him on ‘where do you first see it?’.


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 Post subject: Re: Advice needed
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:42 pm 
Limited Edition

Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 1:25 pm
Posts: 345
Location: New Mexico
Sounds like he's having problems with the variety of bird paths that are DIFFERENT from his trap and skeet targets. SC has a tremendous number of combinations of both path shape and bird speed, and even varying ranges, that are never seen in T or S.

You say:
Quote:
been shooting for a couple months now


Well, you are at a good time to build some strong fundamentals and habits - things that don't have to be shed as he gets more clay-wise.

Most shooters have to learn all the possible paths and speeds to build up an inventory of techniques to go after each bird. That comes from shooting a couple of years for even the most attentive shooters with photographic memory. This is an area that Anthony Matarese's instructional video covers in a lot of detail, though.
https://videos.clayshootinginstruction.com/

If you have the means to obtain a couple-three types of SC traps, you could start on your own land by working some of the presentations until he sees and feels the pattern and leads needed to have success on each one. It will be cheaper and more personalized than working on a range or with instructor for now. IF he can start having success reading birds and detecting how and why he is failing to connect on each miss. Just throwing "hand" birds against different woods backgrounds does not give him the ability to repeat his attempts until he learns to connect with a particular presentation. (Your arm will fall off before that happens.)

But a good instructor who can give him a series of beginning SC instructions is probably the most successful in a short time. (It was for me). If he can benefit from the combination of instruction and practice while being supervised. Not all instructors fit a given shooter's capabilities and needs. Don't be afraid to move off of using "a pool of coaches" if what he needs is more time and insight. The sooner he gets to being "self correcting" on his misses (that is, really understanding why he is missing a particular presentation), the faster he progresses. And the more he will enjoy the effort.

Chokes - a beginner is well served on most fields with Skeet or IC. Until he gets to where he just can't get good breaks at distance, don't hinder his learning with over-tight chokes.

Loads - an ounce of shot at 1200 FPS will do anything he needs for several years to come.

His problems right now are not gun, or choke, or shells. It's making his brain/eyes/subconscious help him instead of beating him up. You know, the HARD stuff.

Good luck, garrisonjoe


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 Post subject: Re: Advice needed
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:01 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 3:14 pm
Posts: 818
Thanks guys. All good advice. He’s OCD in a good way. He will figure it out. He’s very persistent and is aggravated he can’t master this like other sports he plays. We having a ball with this sport and spending some good time together working it out.

He met a little girl (year or two older than him) last weekend that shot a 90 on the course he shot 28 on. She has offered to “help” him after the season is over. Come to think of it, that may be why he shot that 28!


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 Post subject: Re: Advice needed
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:03 pm 
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Joined: Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:50 pm
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Location: The wilds of rural central California
Since he's dead on with hunting, maybe have him try a low mount for SC. It allows the shooter to scan the sky with the peripheral and not concentrate on the gun.

tp (waiting for Rooster to crow...uhhh...laugh)

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 Post subject: Re: Advice needed
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:04 pm 
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Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 3:14 pm
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T-Pee wrote:
Since he's dead on with hunting, maybe have him try a low mount for SC. It allows the shooter to scan the sky with the peripheral and not concentrate on the gun.

tp (waiting for Rooster to laugh)


That’s the first thing we trying next practice. I now believe that’s his biggest problem.


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 Post subject: Re: Advice needed
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:11 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
Posts: 5725
jed1894 wrote:
Thanks guys. All good advice. He’s OCD in a good way. He will figure it out. He’s very persistent and is aggravated he can’t master this like other sports he plays. We having a ball with this sport and spending some good time together working it out.

He met a little girl (year or two older than him) last weekend that shot a 90 on the course he shot 28 on. She has offered to “help” him after the season is over. Come to think of it, that may be why he shot that 28!


I think you’ve identified it:-)


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 Post subject: Re: Advice needed
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:12 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
Posts: 5725
T-Pee wrote:
Since he's dead on with hunting, maybe have him try a low mount for SC. It allows the shooter to scan the sky with the peripheral and not concentrate on the gun.

tp (waiting for Rooster to crow...uhhh...laugh)


Why?......I shoot low gun for most everything.


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 Post subject: Re: Advice needed
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:47 pm 
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Location: The wilds of rural central California
Rooster booster wrote:
T-Pee wrote:
Since he's dead on with hunting, maybe have him try a low mount for SC. It allows the shooter to scan the sky with the peripheral and not concentrate on the gun.

tp (waiting for Rooster to crow...uhhh...laugh)


Why?......I shoot low gun for most everything.

Video of Station #8 or it didn't happen. :wink:

tp (who knows better)

_________________
RM, NRA/USCCA RSO, NSSF, and a bunch of other acronyms.
12/30" Browning Citori CX White
12/26" Franchi Affinity 3
12/26" ATI Cavalry (hey, it shoots...usually)


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 Post subject: Re: Advice needed
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:49 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
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No problem. We actually shot it for fun from ‘gorilla’ start. Arms hanging fully extended. Happy to show that to you. How much you willing to pony up?$$$




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