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 Post subject: Re: Advice needed
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:50 pm 
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Location: The wilds of rural central California
Rooster booster wrote:
No problem. We actually shot it for fun from ‘gorilla’ start. Arms hanging fully extended. Happy to show that to you. How much you willing to pony up?$$$

Heck, man. How much you want for lessons?

tp (willing to try anything)



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12/30" Browning Citori CX White
12/26" Franchi Affinity 3
12/26" ATI Cavalry (hey, it shoots...usually)


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 Post subject: Re: Advice needed
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:57 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
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Ok......put your change in your other pocket, turn your hat around, double knot your left shoelace.


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 Post subject: Re: Advice needed
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:17 am 
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Location: The wilds of rural central California
Rooster booster wrote:
Ok......put your change in your other pocket, turn your hat around, double knot your left shoelace.

Do the Hokey Pokey and you turn your hat around........

Shoelace? Try velcro.

tp (up past his bedtime and it shows)

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12/30" Browning Citori CX White
12/26" Franchi Affinity 3
12/26" ATI Cavalry (hey, it shoots...usually)


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 Post subject: Re: Advice needed
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:32 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 7:32 am
Posts: 614
Location: Eastern VA
Just an observation based on my limited and unqualified experience ... I found that, as a life long rifle and pistol shooter, I could shoot skeet, trap and pattern boards respectably by aiming the gun and using one eye. The pattern board is stationary. The skeet targets always fly on the same line at the same speed. Trap targets are always going away at a predictable speed and rising. I could aim at these targets as they do not require as much depth perception and three dimensional consideration as the myriad of sporting presentations and different types of targets. My sporting clay performance began to improve when I approached sporting as a “binocular game” ... seeing the target clearly in both eyes all the way through taking a pointed (in comparison to aimed) shot with a properly mounted gun. Just a thought. And, thanks for taking the interest in helping the young man shot.

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 Post subject: Re: Advice needed
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:18 am 
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Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:18 pm
Posts: 527
I'm gonna chime in with some comments that may not be popular. Its all with the best intent.

Sporting is a different game. Period. Sure, some crossovers to trap and skeet but its a different game. Shooting doves is a different gig then shooting ducks from a pit.

Poor approach. He hits 24 in trap but 28 in sporting, so it must be the shells...eye.....gun. Nope.
Poor approach. He's been coached by 3 different what you call good instructors, and is going for a 4th. Nope.

Find....a good qualified instructor that will take him from the beginning. Like Jack said, equipment is a start. Get a series of scheduled, planned lessons. Stay consistent. I'm sure all the "help" you've gotten is all well meaning.....but its a bad approach to just walk through the buffet line. Your question may be, ok guys....what is important in finding a qualified coach? Thats a thread in itself.

Expensive? Sure. Then again, this is a expensive gig. I know you hate seeing the frustration and sounds like you want to do the best by him...so get ready to fork out some coin. If one thinks education is expensive, try ignorance. And after putting my son though law school. I understand educational expense.

Solid, consistent lessons will same time...frustration and money in the long run. Thing about running a series with a qualified instructor, you get a plan.....can measure success. When one is getting just "help", there is no plan. Just help.

Series should include, equipment. Proper mechanics and fundementals. Explanation of the game. The complexity, start simple. How to practice. How to compete. Consistency of technique. Master one before moving onto others. Good luck.


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 Post subject: Re: Advice needed
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:27 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2012 8:00 pm
Posts: 293
Here's something that he can do at home every day that will help him on the sporting clays course: Google "OSP Three Bullet Drill".

Here's something that he can try on the sporting clays course: Keep his nose pointed toward the target from the chosen pickup point to the break point. Nose and eyes, not just eyes. This allows the brain to synchronize with the target's speed and trajectory.


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 Post subject: Re: Advice needed
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:03 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:20 pm
Posts: 60
Agree three bullet drill is great practice. Where do you live?


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 Post subject: Re: Advice needed
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:50 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2020 2:22 pm
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Malcolm7 wrote:
Here's something that he can do at home every day that will help him on the sporting clays course: Google "OSP Three Bullet Drill".

Here's something that he can try on the sporting clays course: Keep his nose pointed toward the target from the chosen pickup point to the break point. Nose and eyes, not just eyes. This allows the brain to synchronize with the target's speed and trajectory.

More importantly it keeps the eyes aligned with the rib of the gun as they should be. The question is, when do you break the eyes free from rib so that they can continue to look at the target while the gun moves ahead to provide lead? This is the whole trick to hitting moving targets while looking only at them.

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 Post subject: Re: Advice needed
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:54 pm 
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Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:40 pm
Posts: 549
I have seen many kids love trap and skeet over the years and struggle with sporting clays. In trap and skeet it is about keeping your head on the stock and the right move repeated. The secret to sporting clays is connecting with the target. See Gebben Miles videos and you tubes. Think of two positively charged magnets, One is your hands or gun barrel and the other is the target. Target pushes your hands. See Bruce Scott shotgun forward allowance you tube. He is gone but the video is terrific. Practice one type of target each time you go out.
Do not measure! Kill point, not kill zone. Plan the shot execute; the plan. Good luck.


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 Post subject: Advice needed
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 11:08 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Mon May 20, 2019 9:53 am
Posts: 1264
Skeet and trap are relatively easy. Very very little info to store. To stand out in those games you have to string together quite a few 25s. Comps there are entirely a function of how long you can maintain concentration.

To excel in sporting clays you must learn to read the targets. And, at least for me, it requires real effort and focus. It takes a lot of targets to build up an appropriate inventory to score consistently well.


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 Post subject: Re: Advice needed
PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:52 am 
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Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 3:14 pm
Posts: 818
Thanks again guys. We are in SE Georgia—very rural area. Hour and half from any SC course.

We are looking up the material provided. Im clear on proper instruction by proper instructor. I will handle that after his final meet in couple weeks. Great information


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 Post subject: Re: Advice needed
PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:13 am 
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Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2016 3:48 pm
Posts: 327
In addition to premount, skeet and trap shooters cannot even visualize how much lead some SC birds need which suggests to me none of the 3 or 4 instructors you have tried, has a clue.

Does he miss on close birds in SC?


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 Post subject: Re: Advice needed
PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:17 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:02 am
Posts: 35
jed1894 wrote:
Thanks again guys. We are in SE Georgia—very rural area. Hour and half from any SC course.

We are looking up the material provided. Im clear on proper instruction by proper instructor. I will handle that after his final meet in couple weeks. Great information


Like others have mentioned the hard mount could be causing issues with visual pick up of the targets in SC. This can cause all sorts of issues the primary one being way late on the move and ending up with really fast gun movement through the trigger pull. I would suggest attempting to utilize a "Cheat Mount" before you have him switch to a low gun mount. This will be less of a drastic change compared to his Skeet and Trap techniques which he sounds to enjoy and be successful with.

Secondly since it sounds like it might not be feasible for you get him set up with a well known respected SC specific coach and the various instructors that he has been working with will likely still be involved based on the nature of the program he is in the option of video/online instruction from a world class SC coach is worth considering. There are several world class SC instructors/shooters that have video instructional series for a couple hundred dollars. I would suggest doing some research on the shooting styles they utilize and coach. Pick one that seems to match the style/methods your son is most comfortable with and then buy that DVD series. You and your son can watch the instructional material and then incorporate the lessons into his practice sessions. He can also let his program instructors know what methods and drills he is working on and have them observe and instruct from the same standpoint rather than the conflicting messages he has been getting.

You will be surprised how many little tricks you can learn from these videos to help with specific target presentations. I was worthless on crossing chandelles until I learned how to cut off the top of the arc with a horizontal move a foot or two below the apex and letting it fall back into the sight picture.

The thing you and your son need to realize is that SC has so many variables that it will take some time to learn how to read targets and build up a large memory bank of the sight pictures needed to break the targets consistently.

I wish him well and hope he starts to enjoy SC so that he does not end up in the monotonous I need to be perfect at the same thing over and over and over again world that is Skeet and Trap.


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 Post subject: Re: Advice needed
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:35 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2012 8:00 pm
Posts: 293
In response to point below:

"The question is, when do you break the eyes free from rib so that they can continue to look at the target while the gun moves ahead to provide lead? This is the whole trick to hitting moving targets while looking only at them.[/quote]"

As one who worked to make the transition from trap to sporting clays and especially to FITASC, I have learned to look at this totally in reverse: Not to break eyes free from the rib, but not to even start with the eyes on the rib unless faced with a trap-type presentation.

Most of us were taught to shoot trap with a very deliberate premount, including lining up the rib and two beads before calling "pull". We then reacted to the angle of the target, chased after it, and made a swing-through move to execute the shot. Unfortunately this approach doesn't work well for many sporting clays presentations.

The more one is focused on the rib, the less one can focus on the target. For sporting clays it is beneficial to focus more on the target (i.e., direction, speed, and line) and become comfortable with the rib being a far lesser part of one's focus. This is made far easier by using a gun that does not require one to contort nor requires an excessive amount of pressure between the face and comb to mount consistently.

With a gun that fits and is easy to mount - and with enough practice to have confidence in one's gun mount - the focus can be primarily on the target and the mount becomes second nature. With nose and eyes starting on the target, the brain can synchronize to the target and direct the muzzles - which are in peripheral view and should stay there - to the proper place ahead to execute the shot.

The more one shoots targets of varying presentations, one's experience inventory of target presentation types increases - which can be called upon when it is time to assess a target and make a plan to break it.


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 Post subject: Re: Advice needed
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 3:52 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2020 2:22 pm
Posts: 431
Malcolm7 wrote:
In response to point below:

"The question is, when do you break the eyes free from rib so that they can continue to look at the target while the gun moves ahead to provide lead? This is the whole trick to hitting moving targets while looking only at them.”

As one who worked to make the transition from trap to sporting clays and especially to FITASC, I have learned to look at this totally in reverse: Not to break eyes free from the rib, but not to even start with the eyes on the rib unless faced with a trap-type presentation.

Most of us were taught to shoot trap with a very deliberate premount, including lining up the rib and two beads before calling "pull". We then reacted to the angle of the target, chased after it, and made a swing-through move to execute the shot. Unfortunately this approach doesn't work well for many sporting clays presentations.

The more one is focused on the rib, the less one can focus on the target. For sporting clays it is beneficial to focus more on the target (i.e., direction, speed, and line) and become comfortable with the rib being a far lesser part of one's focus. This is made far easier by using a gun that does not require one to contort nor requires an excessive amount of pressure between the face and comb to mount consistently.

With a gun that fits and is easy to mount - and with enough practice to have confidence in one's gun mount - the focus can be primarily on the target and the mount becomes second nature. With nose and eyes starting on the target, the brain can synchronize to the target and direct the muzzles - which are in peripheral view and should stay there - to the proper place ahead to execute the shot.

The more one shoots targets of varying presentations, one's experience inventory of target presentation types increases - which can be called upon when it is time to assess a target and make a plan to break it.

Aligning the eyes with the rib does not mean to look at the rib. It just means that the direction the rib is pointing is the same direction the eyes and nose are pointing. I hear what you are saying, but you have to admit that is the “prime directive” of shotgun shooting right up until you disconnect the two to put the gun where you like it to point for the shot to hit the target. If you don’t start there, then what constitutes a proper mount? Where does the gun point each and every time you establish your mount if not where your eyes and nose are pointing? One fairly common exception is if you practice “move, mount, shoot” from the low position and firing exactly when the gun touches your cheek. More power to you if that works for you. So far I can’t get the hang of it.

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Last edited by Auldthymer on Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Advice needed
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:02 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
Posts: 5732
Keep trying Mooshie, you’ll get it.;-)


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 Post subject: Re: Advice needed
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:15 pm 
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Auldthymer wrote:
One fairly common exception is if you practice “move, mount, shoot” from the low position and firing exactly when the gun touches your cheek. More power to you if that works for you. So far I can’t get the hang of it.


It takes DEDICATION and putting in the WORK no magic bean.

Mine is more of a move-mount- sync-shoot :)

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 Post subject: Re: Advice needed
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:22 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2020 2:22 pm
Posts: 431
hopper810 wrote:
Auldthymer wrote:
One fairly common exception is if you practice “move, mount, shoot” from the low position and firing exactly when the gun touches your cheek. More power to you if that works for you. So far I can’t get the hang of it.


It takes DEDICATION and putting in the WORK no magic bean.

Mine is more of a move-mount- sync-shoot :)

Good on ya! That whole thing amazes me.

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 Post subject: Re: Advice needed
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 5:00 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2012 8:00 pm
Posts: 293
I certainly don't claim to have special abilities or insight, but rather have built my approach on the coaching and mentoring of more skilled shooters, and much practice both gun mounting and shooting.

At this point I am comfortable mounting the gun with the rib and muzzles pointed at one area (ahead of the target) while my eyes and nose are on the target (behind, below, or above the muzzles). This is the primary objective of the three bullet and other similar drills.


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 Post subject: Re: Advice needed
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 5:14 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2020 2:22 pm
Posts: 431
Malcolm7 wrote:
I certainly don't claim to have special abilities or insight, but rather have built my approach on the coaching and mentoring of more skilled shooters, and much practice both gun mounting and shooting.

At this point I am comfortable mounting the gun with the rib and muzzles pointed at one area (ahead of the target) while my eyes and nose are on the target (behind, below, or above the muzzles). This is the primary objective of the three bullet and other similar drills.

Glad to see you say that clearly and up front. Most people leave it as a mysterious process.



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