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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Southeast Regionals
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:34 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:12 am
Posts: 5710
Nobody involved objected or filed a protest. Must of been the right call.




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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Southeast Regionals
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:36 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2020 1:44 pm
Posts: 18
It0026,

True --no one objected. But I am not sure it was the right call.

By the wording of the rule if the target is launched immediately upon call or within a 3 second delay it is a legal target.

The targets were launched well within this 3 second rule so why would it be called delayed?

Maybe I am misunderstanding the rule.


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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Southeast Regionals
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 4:00 pm 
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The rule is about keeping the shooter from winning by being a cry-baby and refusing shots. These guys need to grow a pair (like Wendell).

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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Southeast Regionals
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 4:33 pm 
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Lot's of changes and corrections made during the shoot off. I counted 4. And on one of them you can hear the other shooters saying a lost target was dead for Fannizi on the first set. On another Fannizi turns around and says lost, established lost on a no bird on the second set. They called dead pair by mistake. And then the 2 supposed slow pulls which could be hard to call by watching the video. The field judge has the final say on slow/delayed pull.


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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Southeast Regionals
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:02 pm 
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Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2020 1:44 pm
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It0026,

There were several corrections made I agree.

To me from the time that Kidd called for the target and the targets appeared they were all well within the 3 second rule.

Maybe Nick can chime in as he recored the shoot off. Possibly there was a discussion prior to the shoot off that the targets needed to be launched immediately and no type of delay would be allowed.

Then it would make sense and the rule was adjusted for the situation.


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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Southeast Regionals
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:10 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:12 am
Posts: 5710
Whoever was pulling the targets states "it's not me" clearly on the video.


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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Southeast Regionals
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:47 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2016 4:44 pm
Posts: 182
Location: Lowcountry of SC
It0026,

I heard that also. He may have been indicating some irregular response interval by the trap(s).

JB


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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Southeast Regionals
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:54 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 5:24 pm
Posts: 88
Location: Cambridge, IDaho
It's a true pair. The point is it's not being released at the same time as the other target. The "three second" rule doesn't make an allowance that in a true pair one of the targets could be released at a different time from the other.
That rule also doesn't "allow" a trapper to intentionally change the timing between pairs or shooters, but at this point with electronic releases, finicky buttons and trappers working hard all day, acknowledges that things happen.


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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Southeast Regionals
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:01 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:29 pm
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While at the World FITASC I noticed that the Promatic release system on the practice fields, required you to push both buttons at the same time to get a double. That leaves a lot of room for error. When you can see both traps, call pull and only one target comes out for that brief second then the second one comes, thats a no bird.


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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Southeast Regionals
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 6:49 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 9:07 pm
Posts: 2326
the Rev wrote:
While at the World FITASC I noticed that the Promatic release system on the practice fields, required you to push both buttons at the same time to get a double. That leaves a lot of room for error. When you can see both traps, call pull and only one target comes out for that brief second then the second one comes, thats a no bird.


^^^^^^^


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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Southeast Regionals
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 6:52 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 9:07 pm
Posts: 2326
YevetS wrote:
Lacyb wrote:
Some systems can pre-set a delay or program for a random delay that all shooters would deal with.


This rule has been "on the books" since the days of hand traps, long before the use of any pre-sets or programs.
Further more it still relies on a trapper to push the button each time to start the program that counts down to release the target.
What I dont like about the rule is it allows a trapper to mess with a shooter he might not like. For example, first three shooters all get "instant pulls". Next guy, first bird 2 second delay, next bird instant, third bird 2.5 second delay, last bird 1 second. Last shooter all perfect instant pulls. Legal, yes as per the rules, but was it truly fair?

Steve


^^^^^


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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Southeast Regionals
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 7:20 am 
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Gunsmokesupply wrote:
In a similar context, Wendell Cherry stated in his last podcast on Behind the Break that it would be impossible to slow pull him and affect his shot. He said he practices not moving and slow pulls purposely, only moving on the flash.

Dave


^^^^^^


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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Southeast Regionals
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 7:45 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2014 10:56 am
Posts: 80
The controller for multi traps are different than for two traps and on some you have to punch two buttons at once for true pair which can cause a delay if they are not hit at the same time which was probably the cause here.


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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Southeast Regionals
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 9:46 am 
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Location: S.E. Wisconsin
sheepeagle wrote:
It's a true pair. The point is it's not being released at the same time as the other target. The "three second" rule doesn't make an allowance that in a true pair one of the targets could be released at a different time from the other..


At one of our state shoots we had a target just like this. It was a simple L/R crossing pair of standard targets at 15 yards about 10 feet apart. To achieve the 10 feet of separation the setter used a timer box so he could put both machines next to each other for easy filling during the shoot. All the trapper had to do was push one button, that released the first target and started the timer for the second release.
There was plenty of time to shoot the pair correctly, back target first, swing through and break leading target. But most could not resist swinging on the first target they saw and then struggled with the second.

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Southeast Regionals
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:11 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2011 7:29 pm
Posts: 2745
Location: Central Maine
There is probably something more to this that would be more apparent to have witnessed live and in person. It certainly seems that there was some sort of issue with the controller and timing and there may have been an advance discussion of that prior to the start of the shoot off

I am confident that all three shooters would want to win or lose based on the results on equal targets

I watched that particular 25-30 seconds a couple times and I think the crosser was delayed and the left outgoing target was on time. Not positive of that but if the case would make the pair even more difficult. Looks like these were make a break targets so not easy to begin with.

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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Southeast Regionals
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:53 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 5:24 pm
Posts: 88
Location: Cambridge, IDaho
YevetS wrote:
sheepeagle wrote:
It's a true pair. The point is it's not being released at the same time as the other target. The "three second" rule doesn't make an allowance that in a true pair one of the targets could be released at a different time from the other..


At one of our state shoots we had a target just like this. It was a simple L/R crossing pair of standard targets at 15 yards about 10 feet apart. To achieve the 10 feet of separation the setter used a timer box so he could put both machines next to each other for easy filling during the shoot. All the trapper had to do was push one button, that released the first target and started the timer for the second release.
There was plenty of time to shoot the pair correctly, back target first, swing through and break leading target. But most could not resist swinging on the first target they saw and then struggled with the second.

Steve


Sorry. My bad choice of my words.

Even in this pair, the birds come out in the same relation to each other each time. There is no provision for them to be released at different points in time on every pair, which is what it looks like is the issue in the video from the Regional.

I have twice been at a shoot where a target was not thrown at the call of the shooter where there was a "vigorous discussion". Both times the argument was the three second rule, and both generated a letter to the NSCA. Both got the same answer, that included the notation that the three second rule is not a license to randomly and purposefully change the timing of releasing the target. In other words, that it was not right for a trapper to purposefully mess with a shooter.


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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Southeast Regionals
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 12:39 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 6:40 am
Posts: 195
Looking at the NSCA English Sporting rules, the CPSA English Sporting rules and FITASC Sporting rules they all have the one thing in common, the target only becomes a No Bird after 3 seconds.
The NSCA rule ‘The target must be launched immediately or with a delay of up to three seconds’ is on the face of it confusing as it seems to be an either or option!

The FITASC rule is rather archaic
‘When a competitor is ready to shoot he/she calls ‘ready’ or ‘pull’ to the Referee who passes on the shooters command to the trapper as quickly as possible via an audio signal. The target must be launched within three seconds after that signal.’
It is many years since I have had a trapper and had to use a whistle when refereeing FITASC.

The CPSA rule is quite simple a No Target is called when
‘The target is launched after a delay of more than three seconds’
but no mention of Referee having to act ASAP on the call.

So allowance in all 3 is made for sticky buttons, slow traps (remember the old wheeled Laporte rabbit traps that had to get up to speed?) referee brain fade etc.
Only FITASC is more explicit in that the Referee must act 'as quickly as possible' , and those who try to catch shooters out by deliberately delaying pressing the button are doing so outside the rules, and that point is well made by Sheepeagle in the post above.

Buttoning simo pairs can be difficult if there is a sticking button etc. Hardwired buttons are usually OK, but main problem I have had is on layouts with radio operated traps when the signals seem to interfere with one another if pressed exactly together and the solution is to ‘paddle’ the buttons by a split second to make sure both traps go.

Regards

Leigh


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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Southeast Regionals
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 4:16 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2020 1:44 pm
Posts: 18
LeighH,

I agree with your comments.

I have watched the shoot off video several times with Kidd shooting. All targets were released immediately or well within the 3 second delay rule. If you look closely you can pick up the second target over his left side in all the shots showing that the pairs were released simultaneously

Again--There may have been a discussion in regards to no delay, etc. etc. prior to the shoot off between the shooters and the referee. This we do not know unless Nick could chime in and help.

So for me by just watching the video with Kidd shooting I do not see where a delay can be called and be entitled to shooting the targets over.

Just my thoughts and observations.


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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Southeast Regionals
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 5:29 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:12 am
Posts: 5710
The only person that matters is the field judge. And why did they keep clearing the traps numerous times if there wasn't a problem? Apparently those directly involved and present had no problem with what took place, what's the big deal?


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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Southeast Regionals
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 6:17 pm 
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Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2020 1:44 pm
Posts: 18
No big deal and not trying to cause any conflict.

It just seems there is a rule written and not being followed, unless there was a discussion and agreement prior.




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