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 Post subject: Front sight or no front sight
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2021 10:20 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Tue Oct 22, 2013 9:17 pm
Posts: 60
I see many shooters with no front bead sight. Thoughts on this?




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 Post subject: Re: Front sight or no front sight
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2021 10:38 am 
Limited Edition

Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 1:25 pm
Posts: 445
Location: New Mexico
Proves you don't need to look for one to shoot well. If it distracts you, "pluck it out"

I do find it helps me make sure I've got my head down and correctly on stock before I shoot. But I don't check that often - just when I miss due to mismounting the gun. :oops:

good luck, garrisonjoe


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 Post subject: Re: Front sight or no front sight
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2021 10:59 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 7:32 am
Posts: 636
Location: Eastern VA
I use a small one.

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 Post subject: Re: Front sight or no front sight
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2021 11:44 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:14 pm
Posts: 1974
.410 gunner There is always some degree of muzzle/barrel/bead awareness but it is an individual choice. I cover this topic in detail in Chapter 12 "Pathway to Pointability" in Successful Shotgunning.

http://www.peteblakeley.com


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 Post subject: Re: Front sight or no front sight
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2021 12:15 pm 
Shooting Instructor
Shooting Instructor

Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:16 am
Posts: 2390
410,

I believe the main reason for the front bead (a shotgun doesn't have a site on it. This type of gun is made for pointing, not aiming) is to make sure that your head and cheek are in the right position on the comb. It will also let you see if your head is possibly too high. In my opinion there must be a middle bead to do this. I know many shooters who have taken the front bead off of their gun. This is fine once you get your gun fit to you. I would just leave the sight on my gun. If you ever decide you want to sell your gun, most people will want this bead on the gun.

Just my thoughts and things I have learned from others,

Mike McAlpine


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 Post subject: Re: Front sight or no front sight
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:02 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2011 4:07 pm
Posts: 1615
Location: Front Range, CO
garrisonjoe wrote:
Proves you don't need to look for one to shoot well. If it distracts you, "pluck it out"

I do find it helps me make sure I've got my head down and correctly on stock before I shoot. But I don't check that often - just when I miss due to mismounting the gun. :oops:

good luck, garrisonjoe



This.

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Oldfarmer wrote:
Idiots breed at a much higher rate than people with common sense and not all of them are able to find government work.


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 Post subject: Re: Front sight or no front sight
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2021 3:14 pm 
Limited Edition

Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2016 3:48 pm
Posts: 342
A shotgun is not a rifle, its not a sight, try looking at the clay not the tip of the barrel


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 Post subject: Re: Front sight or no front sight
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2021 4:42 pm 
Limited Edition

Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2020 9:56 am
Posts: 343
Browning Citori Guy wrote:
A shotgun is not a rifle, its not a sight...


Unless you want it to be. Shotguns can be aimed just fine...if that is what you want to do. I am not suggesting you should or should not. I’m just saying it works fine.


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 Post subject: Re: Front sight or no front sight
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2021 4:46 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2014 8:34 pm
Posts: 691
Mine fell out in November, company sent me a new one that didn't fit so I haven't replace it. The mid bead is left, I still use it to check my mount but my scores haven't changed that I can tell, besides a lack of practice.


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 Post subject: Re: Front sight or no front sight
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2021 5:49 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2011 7:29 pm
Posts: 2746
Location: Central Maine
I haven't removed my front beads but I honestly couldn't tell you what they even look like at the moment. When you are actively shooting, seeing the bead isn't ideal.

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CG Summit Sporting
Beretta A400 Excel "Black" Cole Special
Browning Citori Crossover Target

NSCA 602398


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 Post subject: Re: Front sight or no front sight
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:43 am 
Limited Edition

Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2016 3:48 pm
Posts: 342
friend

I do not think he was talking about Turkey shooters I think your screen name should be Pedantic


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 Post subject: Re: Front sight or no front sight
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:55 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 5:29 pm
Posts: 967
Location: Southern Miss
I've done it both ways. Not much difference, but I do believe the eyes need a reference point, either a rib or a bead, for the subconscience to calculate a sight picture/lead.

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 Post subject: Re: Front sight or no front sight
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 1:53 pm 
Limited Edition

Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2020 9:56 am
Posts: 343
Browning Citori Guy wrote:
friend

I do not think he was talking about Turkey shooters I think your screen name should be Pedantic

I am not talking about turkeys except maybe many of my companions on this forum. Why is preaching one thesis pedantic and the opposite thesis not? Folks who discredit the ability to hit flying targets with a shotgun by either one- or two-eyed aiming are confirming their ignorance for the entire world to witness. It simply is a truth that no amount of denial can change. I tell no one how to shoot. But I will them all the different ways they can choose from.


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 Post subject: Re: Front sight or no front sight
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:15 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
Posts: 6027
Roberto, maybe you should put in the time to actually learn about, and understand the various ways to hit flying targets before trying to enlighten others?;-) how’re those true pairs coming with your eye rigidly ‘locked’ onto the rib?


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 Post subject: Re: Front sight or no front sight
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:23 pm 
Shooting Instructor
Shooting Instructor

Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:16 am
Posts: 2390
Browning,

Great reply. I couldn't agree with you more

Friend,

While I am not trying to get in a pissing match, I do want to respectfully disagree with you. Aiming a shotgun while trying to break a flying clay target is not an acceptable way of shooting. The main reason I say this is because when you look in the bead or the end of barrell, you can't focus on the target. I have taught a lot of people to shoot in my career and I can always tell when they are aiming or looking at the barrell. When this happens, the barrell will almost always stop which will cause the shooter to miss the target, most of the time behind it.

When a shooter willingly shoots with one eye, that shooter will no longer have depth perception or peripheral vision. Both are conducive to good shooting. Now with that said, I have known some trap shooters who can do this but their target variety is limited to outgoing presentations and quartering away targets.

Mike McAlpine
"Inside the Mind of a Target Setter"

These comments are not only mine but of most all good instructors or coaches and shooters.


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 Post subject: Re: Front sight or no front sight
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:34 pm 
Limited Edition

Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2020 9:56 am
Posts: 343
[quote="Rooster booster"]Roberto, maybe you should put in the time to actually learn about, and understand the various ways to hit flying targets before trying to enlighten others?;-) how’re those true pairs coming with your eye rigidly ‘locked’ onto the rib?

We hear stories here all the time about the many shooters who successfully defy your wisdom, some at championship level. Also the many coaches who teach different students according to their preferences and the particular styles most comfortable for them. I know you are a fine shot, likely better than I could ever hope to be no matter what technique I choose to use. Still, representing your method as the one and only right way to shoot is, as I said above, just plain ignorant.


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 Post subject: Re: Front sight or no front sight
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:49 pm 
Limited Edition

Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2020 9:56 am
Posts: 343
Mike McAlpine wrote:
Browning,

Great reply. I couldn't agree with you more

Friend,

While I am not trying to get in a pissing match, I do want to respectfully disagree with you. Aiming a shotgun while trying to break a flying clay target is not an acceptable way of shooting. The main reason I say this is because when you look in the bead or the end of barrell, you can't focus on the target. I have taught a lot of people to shoot in my career and I can always tell when they are aiming or looking at the barrell. When this happens, the barrell will almost always stop which will cause the shooter to miss the target, most of the time behind it.

When a shooter willingly shoots with one eye, that shooter will no longer have depth perception or peripheral vision. Both are conducive to good shooting. Now with that said, I have known some trap shooters who can do this but their target variety is limited to outgoing presentations and quartering away targets.

Mike McAlpine
"Inside the Mind of a Target Setter"

These comments are not only mine but of most all good instructors or coaches and shooters.

Mike, you are superimposing one technique on the other, but it doesn’t work that way. Aiming IS about looking at the place you want the shot to go. It is not about looking at the bead, and it is not about looking at the barrel. You are taking the defects common in two-eyed gun pointing, and assuming they matter when aiming. When aiming, you can’t look at the barrel, because you are looking down it. You can’t look at the bead, because you are looking past it. You don’t stop the gun, because you have no temptation to look at the barrel. It just can’t be done with only one eye open and fixed over the rib.

As for depth perception from using two eyes, that is a silly myth. Past about 20 ft the advantage of using two eyes has almost completely disappeared. Beyond a target distance about 100X the distance between your eyes, there is no advantage to two eyes for depth perception. The further the shot, the less the second eye matters.

The one drawback to shooting with one eye is not a total loss of peripheral vision, but rather the loss of only about 20 of the field of vision you would have with two eyes. See for yourself. It is easy to do. That loss of peripheral vision is a very small price to pay for not seeing two targets, not having the target look differently when coming from the left than the right, not having to worry about dominance, etc., etc. The list of advantages goes on and on.


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 Post subject: Re: Front sight or no front sight
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:23 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
Posts: 6027
friend of a friend wrote:
Rooster booster wrote:
Roberto, maybe you should put in the time to actually learn about, and understand the various ways to hit flying targets before trying to enlighten others?;-) how’re those true pairs coming with your eye rigidly ‘locked’ onto the rib?

We hear stories here all the time about the many shooters who successfully defy your wisdom, some at championship level. Also the many coaches who teach different students according to their preferences and the particular styles most comfortable for them. I know you are a fine shot, likely better than I could ever hope to be no matter what technique I choose to use. Still, representing your method as the one and only right way to shoot is, as I said above, just plain ignorant.


Wrong again Roberto. I’ve only criticized your preaching about the one ‘right’ way you’ve spouted in the past. Do your research, and you’ll see I’ve said ‘whatever works’. But you, were quick to argue with everyone, including world champions, who were kind enough to donate a lesson.


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 Post subject: Re: Front sight or no front sight
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:53 pm 
Limited Edition

Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2020 9:56 am
Posts: 343
Rooster booster wrote:
friend of a friend wrote:
Rooster booster wrote:
Roberto, maybe you should put in the time to actually learn about, and understand the various ways to hit flying targets before trying to enlighten others?;-) how’re those true pairs coming with your eye rigidly ‘locked’ onto the rib?

We hear stories here all the time about the many shooters who successfully defy your wisdom, some at championship level. Also the many coaches who teach different students according to their preferences and the particular styles most comfortable for them. I know you are a fine shot, likely better than I could ever hope to be no matter what technique I choose to use. Still, representing your method as the one and only right way to shoot is, as I said above, just plain ignorant.


Wrong again Roberto. I’ve only criticized your preaching about the one ‘right’ way you’ve spouted in the past. Do your research, and you’ll see I’ve said ‘whatever works’. But you, were quick to argue with everyone, including world champions, who were kind enough to donate a lesson.

Surely you aren’t saying that I said anything about one right way today. I mean except right for me. So in other words we are saying exactly the same thing. There are a lot of ways to do it. Pick the one that works best for you. Of course that is what I have always said. You must be thinking of someone else, this guy named Roberto. I certainly am in no position to speak for him. Good to know we agree. Of course you will forgive my misconception regarding your position. You seem so determined to discredit me, it is hard to keep track of what’s what. And all along we were in agreement. Go figure.

I’m not sure I understand your world champion reference. I don’t recall ever arguing with one of them. But a free lesson does sound pretty neat. Let me know if you ever decide to give any. I hear you know what you are doing.


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 Post subject: Re: Front sight or no front sight
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:31 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:02 am
Posts: 100
friend of a friend wrote:
Mike McAlpine wrote:
Browning,

Great reply. I couldn't agree with you more

Friend,

While I am not trying to get in a pissing match, I do want to respectfully disagree with you. Aiming a shotgun while trying to break a flying clay target is not an acceptable way of shooting. The main reason I say this is because when you look in the bead or the end of barrell, you can't focus on the target. I have taught a lot of people to shoot in my career and I can always tell when they are aiming or looking at the barrell. When this happens, the barrell will almost always stop which will cause the shooter to miss the target, most of the time behind it.

When a shooter willingly shoots with one eye, that shooter will no longer have depth perception or peripheral vision. Both are conducive to good shooting. Now with that said, I have known some trap shooters who can do this but their target variety is limited to outgoing presentations and quartering away targets.

Mike McAlpine
"Inside the Mind of a Target Setter"

These comments are not only mine but of most all good instructors or coaches and shooters.

Mike, you are superimposing one technique on the other, but it doesn’t work that way. Aiming IS about looking at the place you want the shot to go. It is not about looking at the bead, and it is not about looking at the barrel. You are taking the defects common in two-eyed gun pointing, and assuming they matter when aiming. When aiming, you can’t look at the barrel, because you are looking down it. You can’t look at the bead, because you are looking past it. You don’t stop the gun, because you have no temptation to look at the barrel. It just can’t be done with only one eye open and fixed over the rib.

As for depth perception from using two eyes, that is a silly myth. Past about 20 ft the advantage of using two eyes has almost completely disappeared. Beyond a target distance about 100X the distance between your eyes, there is no advantage to two eyes for depth perception. The further the shot, the less the second eye matters.

The one drawback to shooting with one eye is not a total loss of peripheral vision, but rather the loss of only about 20 of the field of vision you would have with two eyes. See for yourself. It is easy to do. That loss of peripheral vision is a very small price to pay for not seeing two targets, not having the target look differently when coming from the left than the right, not having to worry about dominance, etc., etc. The list of advantages goes on and on.


I am bit confused by some of this as I have never really shot one eyed while looking down the barrel (aiming) so I have a few questions.

1) How can you not look at the barrel/bead and see only past them with only one eye? When ever I practice my mount at home I mount with two eyes open and point the gun and then check the mount by closing the off eye and when doing this the barrel and bead take up a good amount of visual space. With 2 eyes open i can make "ghost barrels" and look past the barrel bead when focusing down the rib. However for most targets my eyes would not be down rib anyway.

2) if in this aiming method you want to avoid looking at the bead and also want to look down the barrel why would you ever have a bead to begin with? In the 2 eyed look at the target method the bead provides subconscious reference point when the eyes are not looking down the barrel. What purpose does it provide with this technique?

3) how does one slow everything down both visually and gun speed wise with this method? In the standard method your eyes are fully disconnected from the barrels during set up so they can create visual control over the target and get in sync with it while the gun moves less distance over a longer visual window thereby slowing everything down compared to having the eyes and the gun travel the same path from target acquisition to shot placement.

Never really heard anyone explain this aiming method.




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