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 Post subject: Re: Reading Targets
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 9:36 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:14 pm
Posts: 2123
muledriver. I already said I agree 100% with Life of Riley. New shooter definition:- Someone who has picked a shotgun up for the first time. Within two hours, I will have them breaking 40 yard crossers.




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 Post subject: Re: Reading Targets
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 9:40 am 
Crown Grade
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Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2007 5:21 pm
Posts: 5222
Location: UK
I have no doubt Pete has helped many, but I'm not convinced that anyone can teach people every lead picture on every target. Also I don't see lead at the muzzle and certainly not as a measurable gap so it wouldn't work for me.

I enjoy shooting registered sporting but at my age there's little point in expecting to make AAA in 3 years. But a couple of years ago, a few months before Covid kicked in, I decided to get a few hours coaching with a view to finding out if I could up my scores by maybe 10% or thereabouts.

My first session with a highly regarded local coach went very well. In the event he spent an extra half hour on the targets before we sat down with coffee to go over the lesson. The very first thing he said was "Did you notice that I didn't mention lead once"? What he had covered in detail was just about everything else to do with technique - or process if you prefer - and planning the shot.

After that I went to one of the very top sporting coaches. At least one of his students has achieved world championships and is easily one of the top 5 in the world. He did mention lead but only once or twice and only in the relative sense, something like: "That needs about 50% more than you gave it". Otherwise it was again all about technique.

Interestingly, both coaches spotted that I wasn't aggressive enough on certain targets and both had me holding further back and breaking them earlier. Also, both coaches stressed focussing primarily on the target to avoid barrel watching and measuring, but of course the barrel is still in the picture.

As far as I'm concerned it was money well spent and I'll have a few more hours this year but I have no expectation that I'll learn every lead picture on every target!

_________________
“when Muslims are in the minority they are very concerned with minority rights, when they are in the majority there are no minority rights.”


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 Post subject: Re: Reading Targets
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:16 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:14 pm
Posts: 2123
Trickster I have a question, well two actually. Do you have my book "You're Behind it! the Unit Lead system" The reason I ask is because all the illustrations for the book were done by ClayShooting USA and the distributor for the book in the UK was Richard Rawlingson who wrote George Digweeds book, "It's got to be perfect". I know Richard from way back and he was the editor for ClayShooting USA.

At that time (2007) the book had a huge following in the UK, but Richard moved on to other things so because of the cost of shipping the books over there, it is now unavailable. Unfortunately here in the US at that time the book was dismissed as complete rubbish because it was something new.

Second question. Do you know Salopian?


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 Post subject: Re: Reading Targets
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:48 pm 
Crown Grade
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Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2007 5:21 pm
Posts: 5222
Location: UK
No Pete I don't have that book, in fact I don't have any books about clay shooting. 2007 is before my time as I only got into reg sporting in late 2011. I well remember Richard Rawlinson's gun tests in CS and I miss them as they were the only ones with any degree of objectiveness.

I have met salopian briefly a couple of times at sporting shoots but not enough that he would know me or my username here - or on any other forum.

Why do you ask?

I'm not being awkward here Pete but as The Buddha advises, I question everything, no matter who says it. That doesn't mean I automatically disagree it just means I don't automatically accept it as fact.

Where I totally agree with you is about the numbingly stupid comment, often made on here, that by focussing hard on the leading edge, the magic of the subconscious will pull the trigger for you at the right moment.

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“when Muslims are in the minority they are very concerned with minority rights, when they are in the majority there are no minority rights.”


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 Post subject: Re: Reading Targets
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:59 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:14 pm
Posts: 2123
Richard and his wife would come to the shooting facility that my wife and I managed, Clifford Farm in Devon, there is a picture of us in the bar on my web site from probably 30 years ago now. I was coaching by using the Unit Lead methodology back then but I never put pen to paper and compiled the info. in a book until years later. And the book actually does teach you a logical way to read all the targets. If you can find a copy over there or someone has one that you can borrow, it's worth reading. Michael Brunton, ClayShooting USA publisher did me a swap, 50 UL books in return for the pictures so there are some copies over there and I do occasionally ship more copies over, but the postage to the UK is prohibitive.

Richard knew George Digweed well, as does Salopian. If you get the chance to take a lesson with Salopian, grab it, he coaches THE best in the World and he is well respected as a coach.

I agree with what you say about the "numbingly stupid comment" that focusing on the leading edge of the target is all you need to do but many shooters here in the US believe that. :roll:


Last edited by pete blakeley on Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Reading Targets
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:55 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 2:28 pm
Posts: 254
pete blakeley wrote:
senoiaslim. Thanks for the feedback. I wrote an article many years ago called "No Magic Method" for SC magazine, I wrote for the mag for 15 years. The article examined all the shooting methods and which was the most consistent for competitive shotgunning.

Make yourself a 4' piece of white painted 2 x 4 and put it at 20 yards to give you a visual impression of what 4 units looks like. From that it is easy to go to the other units. :wink:

http://www.peteblakeley.com


Pete, I did that at my last place putting a 4x4 on the ground 4 foot painted white at my skeet field. It is great and no mater what station you are at, it shows the lead from one end to the other..


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 Post subject: Re: Reading Targets
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 6:56 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:14 pm
Posts: 2123
senoiaslim It works well doesn't it? :D


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 Post subject: Re: Reading Targets
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 7:36 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2010 12:49 pm
Posts: 3270
Trickster wrote:
I have no doubt Pete has helped many, but I'm not convinced that anyone can teach people every lead picture on every target. Also I don't see lead at the muzzle and certainly not as a measurable gap so it wouldn't work for me.
!


This, in a nutshell, sums this whole discussion up very nice. Good job Trickster. Spot on the money!


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 Post subject: Re: Reading Targets
PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:29 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:58 pm
Posts: 155
Mule Driver wrote:
Trickster wrote:
I have no doubt Pete has helped many, but I'm not convinced that anyone can teach people every lead picture on every target. Also I don't see lead at the muzzle and certainly not as a measurable gap so it wouldn't work for me.
!


This, in a nutshell, sums this whole discussion up very nice. Good job Trickster. Spot on the money!


I see lead at the muzzle but agree that I never see it as a measurable gap! I will say things to myself like, "look at the angle and speed, this one will take a big lead." Or, "this one is a blooper and a very small angle, gonna have to shoot almost right at it." People who say, "I gave it 5 feet of lead." I have no idea what in the hell that means.


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 Post subject: Re: Reading Targets
PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:22 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:14 pm
Posts: 2123
Life of Riley In the early stages of learning to shoot, (because of the phenomenon of perspective) at extended range everybody struggles with seeing lead out there at the target in feet, that's why seeing lead at the muzzle is a lot easier.


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 Post subject: Re: Reading Targets
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:10 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:14 pm
Posts: 2123
Extract from a California e mail this morning:- "The pictures are spot on. Awesome book, it has helped me a lot."

www.peteblakeley.com


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 Post subject: Re: Reading Targets
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:01 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:14 pm
Posts: 15
pete blakeley wrote:
Truepairlover Probably not. But I guess about the same number of major SC tournaments that Don Currie and Gil Ash's students have won? But when you say multiple lessons, 6 hours is usually enough for them to learn a logical way to read every target and shoot around 75%. Obviously then they need to practice what they have learned and develop their mental capabilities to put it all together.


Where did I say that I consider those two good coaches? If you or you students have never proven your methods to be effective at larger shoots, then how can you tout your methods as effective?

You keep saying that in 1, 6 hour lesson you can have a student breaking 75%, but is that on charity course fluff targets or legit registered targets? If it’s the former, that’s not impressive. You aren’t going to teach a person to learn the lead and line on every target imaginable in 6 hours. You aren’t going to do it in 60 hours. All you are doing is selling snake oil just like the two other coaches you mentioned.


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 Post subject: Re: Reading Targets
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:10 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:14 pm
Posts: 2123
So, sent me a guinea pig. If I can't do what I say I can do, it won't cost him a cent for the lessons.


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 Post subject: Re: Reading Targets
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:18 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:14 pm
Posts: 15
pete blakeley wrote:
So, sent me a guinea pig. If I can't do what I say I can do, it won't cost him a cent for the lessons.

Why should I have to send somebody to you? If your method was so good, it would have at least accidentally produced a solid shooter or two by now. The fact that it hasn’t tells me that it isn’t as foolproof as you make it out to be.


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 Post subject: Re: Reading Targets
PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:00 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:14 pm
Posts: 2123
Truepairlover "It would have accidentally produced a solid shooter or two by now" :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Reading Targets
PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 5:52 pm 
Limited Edition

Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:59 pm
Posts: 385
Mr. Blakeley,

Shouldn't you rename the books "Look At The Barrel"

?


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 Post subject: Re: Reading Targets
PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:32 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:14 pm
Posts: 2123
nic I don't know why you would think that. On page 14 of the reading targets book second line from the top I say, quote: "By using our shotgun barrel as a visual reference in our peripheral vision, " Further down the page (line 12) I say again "Seeing some sort of measurement at the muzzle of the gun without looking at the gun is the easiest way. In other words, although we can see the muzzle, we don't look at it. That's what periperal vision means. I hope this clarifies the situation/question for you?

Thank you.

http://www.peteblakeley.com


Last edited by pete blakeley on Sat Apr 03, 2021 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Reading Targets
PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:29 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:14 pm
Posts: 2123
With reference to the post from nic and to all the shooters that bought either "You're Behind it, the Unit Lead system for Sporting Clays" or "Reading Targets."

To become an accomplished shot, we need to see the required lead in one of two places, either in feet out there at the target (which is difficult) or in some form of measurement at the muzzle that correlates accurately into feet at the target, which is a lot easier. In both cases, we need to establish a sight picture/bird/barrel relationship but we need to do that without looking at the gun. The gun must remain in our peripheral vision at all times. If any shooters do not understand what peripheral vision is please e mail me and I will be happy to explain. Thank you.

www.peteblakeley.com


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 Post subject: Re: Reading Targets
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 9:41 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2010 12:49 pm
Posts: 3270
pete blakeley wrote:
With reference to the post from nic and to all the shooters that bought either "You're Behind it, the Unit Lead system for Sporting Clays" or "Reading Targets."

To become an accomplished shot, we need to see the required lead in one of two places, either in feet out there at the target (which is difficult) or in some form of measurement at the muzzle that correlates accurately into feet at the target, which is a lot easier. In both cases, we need to establish a sight picture/bird/barrel relationship but we need to do that without looking at the gun. The gun must remain in our peripheral vision at all times. If any shooters do not understand what peripheral vision is please e mail me and I will be happy to explain. Thank you.

http://www.peteblakeley.com


By your statement here, you’re advocating “measuring”. Most every competent shooting instructor I’ve ever heard of thinks that’s not a good everyday method. You do, so be it.

Now, I realize that on certain targets that we get into trouble with, some sort of conscious system can be successfully employeed. But that’s a tool to be used when appropriate not an everyday method.


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 Post subject: Re: Reading Targets
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:33 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:14 pm
Posts: 2123
muledriver Of course, you are correct, as always. But then, when you can successfully read targets and your brain tells you one target needs 3 feet of lead and another target needs 12 feet of lead what do you do? I guess that isn't "measuring"is it? Silly me. But what would you call it?

And of course it isn't what all the other competent coaches tell you because many of them can't explain lead in a logical way and they would prefer that you keep coming back for more lessons. But perhaps that's why it takes some shooters several years to get to Master? :roll:




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