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 Post subject: Simos off same arm or from very close machines
PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2021 11:21 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Mon May 20, 2019 9:53 am
Posts: 1546
Starting to find that this is my biggest weakness. Particularly on shorter windows and crossers. I think what's happening (by design i'm sure) is i struggle to visually separate the birds and essentially flock shoot. Even when i know which i want to shoot first i have a hard time getting enough focus on just one.

I discovered this weakness during a recent visit to a facility with all manual machines. Simos off the same arm can be tough even when they are easy to read. Then this past weekend i was on pace to put up a score that would've won D and C class and been top 3 of B when we hit a very skeet-ish station with 4 simos out of machines placed very close together and i sh*t the bed. Fantastic day for me otherwise. 1 for 8. Part of the problem was instead of watching the guy ahead of me i was jaw jacking with my son who almost never shoots with me (what an awesome time to have him out there!) and so didn't have a real plan of attack. So close, fast, 9lb gun, didn't bother changing to Sk chokes, no plan, launched practically from same arm....

So does anyone have tips for this? Should i wait till there is some separation in the birds to pick them up?




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 Post subject: Re: Simos off same arm or from very close machines
PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2021 1:04 pm 
Crown Grade
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Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 3:16 pm
Posts: 3754
Location: Southeast MI
So does anyone have tips for this?

All the tips you need are contained in your post above.

When you are shooting a tournament:
* Stop jaw jacking with your son
* Shoot with people you shoot with often
* Have a real plan of attack when it's your turn
* Change your chokes when you think you should
* Practice simo pairs until you can focus and shoot them one at a time
* Maybe shoot some skeet to get used to close, fast crossers
* Don't count your score until the tournament is over
* Try hard not to sh*t the bed

_________________
Current NSSA/NSCA Rule book: http://nsca.nssa-nsca.org/rule-book/
Sporting Clays, 5-Stand, Super Sporting & Parcours de Chasse (FITASC)


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 Post subject: Re: Simos off same arm or from very close machines
PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2021 1:18 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Mon May 20, 2019 9:53 am
Posts: 1546
Doc you are of course right.


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 Post subject: Re: Simos off same arm or from very close machines
PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2021 1:37 pm 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*
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Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:20 am
Posts: 13629
Dr Mike is always right but I would have a different order. PRACTICE.1st.

Until you have seen these and practiced them , you will have a hard time w/ a plan. The worst part of what you posted --to me-- is that you were shooting a good score and you thought you were good and didn't need a plan. You always need a plan and when it does not work on the 1st pair , you need a new plan--right now.

Also carry some spreaders so that when you "forget" to change chokes , you have an option.

True pairs off the same arm is what we shot when I started. Most often shoot the low bird 1st as it will hit the ground 1st otherwise.

_________________
Nsca # 540300. Been loving this game since 01.

Our prentice Tom may now refuse
To wipe his scoundrel master's shoes
For now he's free to sing and play
O'er the hills and far away.


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 Post subject: Re: Simos off same arm or from very close machines
PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2021 2:25 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2011 7:29 pm
Posts: 2828
Location: Central Maine
Haven’t seen targets off manual traps in 7-8 years. The pairs off same arm or even nested were interesting. Mike and Sera have hit the high notes well

With modern traps setters are able to set up a number of visual challenges that require all the same focus and preparation to have success

Great that you got out with your son. Shooting sporting with my son is a wonderful activity we are able to enjoy together and something I always look forward to. When we started shooting competitions together he was a teenager and I funded his shooting through college and now as a 30 year old still makes it a priority and enjoys it.

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Beretta A400 Excel "Black" Cole Special
Browning Citori Crossover Target
Beretta A400 20 Gauge

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 Post subject: Re: Simos off same arm or from very close machines
PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2021 2:31 pm 
Crown Grade
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Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:20 pm
Posts: 23359
Could you watch them come off the machines or were they hidden? if you could see them, pick one machine and focus on that bird and move to the second.

I shot one tournament where the machines were about 7 -8 o'clock behind us with one machine set about 7 yards behind the first BUT with a faster spring. On pull, you saw the first target and just as it became clear and crossed in front of you, the second came screaming past it drawing your eyes. These targets were maybe 15 yards away in front of you. A LOT of folks missed many of those. I stayed with the first target and simply kept moving to the second and ran it. (Was a better day for me that day)

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The bitterness of poor quality is remembered long after the sweetness of low price has faded from memory, Aldo Gucci

Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience, George Carlin


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 Post subject: Re: Simos off same arm or from very close machines
PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:21 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Mon May 20, 2019 9:53 am
Posts: 1546
Hmm I think they were visible. I was afraid to look right at them for fear of getting beat by speed.


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 Post subject: Re: Simos off same arm or from very close machines
PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:32 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 9:07 pm
Posts: 2371
DrMike wrote:
So does anyone have tips for this?

All the tips you need are contained in your post above.

When you are shooting a tournament:
* Stop jaw jacking with your son
* Shoot with people you shoot with often
* Have a real plan of attack when it's your turn
* Change your chokes when you think you should
* Practice simo pairs until you can focus and shoot them one at a time
* Maybe shoot some skeet to get used to close, fast crossers
* Don't count your score until the tournament is over
* Try hard not to sh*t the bed


^^^^^^^^^^^^


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 Post subject: Re: Simos off same arm or from very close machines
PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:34 pm 
*Proud to be a*
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I'm sorry to beat this expired horse , but you have to practice how to look at the targets. How to see just one , how not to get distracted by the other.

_________________
Nsca # 540300. Been loving this game since 01.

Our prentice Tom may now refuse
To wipe his scoundrel master's shoes
For now he's free to sing and play
O'er the hills and far away.


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 Post subject: Re: Simos off same arm or from very close machines
PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:47 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2010 12:49 pm
Posts: 3270
oneounceload wrote:

I shot one tournament where the machines were about 7 -8 o'clock behind us with one machine set about 7 yards behind the first BUT with a faster spring. On pull, you saw the first target and just as it became clear and crossed in front of you, the second came screaming past it drawing your eyes.


First, re-read oneounceload's previous post, and pay particular attention to what I quoted from that above. You want to watch out for this exact thing, because if you are not aware of it when it's being used, it can catch you out every time.

This presentation can be made harder by using targets that are the same size and color.

What I've learned to do is that if I'm the first shooter (and get to preview just two pairs of birds), and if the clays are both the same size and color, I'll pick a point where I would see both of them as clear as possible, and insert my gun just ahead of that -- and shoot the first one I see. Stay visually connected with that one, focus as much as possible, kill it, and then go get the other one.

If I'm one of the last shooters, and got to preview a good number of the other shooters targets, I'll pick which one I think I'll shoot first based on what others have done and how successful they were. This is particular a good method when the targets are different colors.

Bottomline: You need to recognize what the target setter is doing, and have a plan based on what works for you in the given situation when you go to shoot. It can be very easy to "shoot the wrong target first" if you're not paying attention.


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 Post subject: Re: Simos off same arm or from very close machines
PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2021 5:06 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2011 7:29 pm
Posts: 2828
Location: Central Maine
Target setters will use a variety of things to make you uncomfortable and trick your senses or create a moments hesitation that quickly turns into.....you are screwed :lol:

Sometimes you can block the view of the second target so it doesn't distract you and then basically use Mules approach. Kill target one and then focus on and go get the second target. When that isn't possible or feasible or practical, then you really have to be able to get your focus on the target you want to kill first in spite of all the things going on that are intended to mess you up.

Practicing pairs like this will help. You need to find a way to be in control of things when both targets are in the air. Have faith in what you will do and execute the plan.

_________________
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Beretta A400 Excel "Black" Cole Special
Browning Citori Crossover Target
Beretta A400 20 Gauge

NSCA 602398


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 Post subject: Re: Simos off same arm or from very close machines
PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:05 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:58 pm
Posts: 155
There is a station at a club I shoot that is similar to this. On a true pair, the birds are both standard clays and fly very close to each other left to right. The thing that has gotten me is that the top clay is on a slower spring and falls much quicker right in front of you. Usually I go with the bottom target first as it's more natural to raise the gun to the second target. In this case I started shooting the top crosser first and still have time to find and shoot the second/lower target second as it travels farther.


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 Post subject: Re: Simos off same arm or from very close machines
PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 11:56 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:21 pm
Posts: 727
Two courses near me on farms run as a side business, very early clays courses pre 1990 I think. Most stations have one manual served by a trapper who has a button for the automatic trap 2nd of the pair. Many times throw two birds off the manual. Outgoing “flushing quail “ rabbits, high long crossers off a tower & teal. They can throw two same arm any station & frequently switch the paired targets,

Method generaly the same, choose the first bird from the show pairs . Then estimate were the 2nd target can be broken. Set up your eye OFF the first target were your peripheral vision picks it up . Roll your eye into it, from behind , beside, below, whatever works best to see the chosen target only. This helps focus on one target. They will fly together then separate, eye pick up on both off the arm if you look directly, shots generally go between the birds.

First bird broken # 2 is going to be close move up or over and break it. Best if the 2nd is going to be higher or ahead of the first bird. Don’t want it barrel blocked

Fun shots not often seen duplicate real bird conditions well.

Bass


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 Post subject: Re: Simos off same arm or from very close machines
PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 3:32 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:04 pm
Posts: 1830
Location: Warrior, Ala
Load 1 shell and shoot the first bird, again and again.


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 Post subject: Re: Simos off same arm or from very close machines
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 11:32 pm 
Shooting Instructor
Shooting Instructor

Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:16 am
Posts: 2527
Bird,

I have to agree that on a presentation like this, you should look at the machine or where the targets become visible. (on Trap Doubles, I look for the flash) This way your eyes will normally focus on the first target you see. Forget about the second bird until you have broken the first one. Then smoothly move to the second one and break it. I have set many stations where you think you have to rush the first target very fast.(True Pair), If you start your gun out a ways, you can break it very fast. If you know how to use Collapsing Lead, your gun will only a maybe a foot or two and the target will fly right into the lead. This has to be done with the unconscious mind. (Sorry Pete)

Mike McAlpine

The Clay Target Academy

By the way, I don't teach looking at the trap normally. It just depends how fast the target is going and your method for achieving lead. Learn them all and you can break anything!


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 Post subject: Re: Simos off same arm or from very close machines
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:03 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Thu May 03, 2012 5:46 pm
Posts: 282
Location: Charlottesville, VA
A loooong time ago when I first started this game and risen from E to D class I had trouble with targets of this ilk. Fast, short window and close together. My first instructor told me at this point in your game you should come away with 50% on a station like this. Pick the easiest one (sometimes that becomes the first one you see) and make sure you kill it. Shooting at it twice if necessary. Then as others have said PLAN! Break point, hold point visual pick up spot and then do the work.
Have fun.


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 Post subject: Re: Simos off same arm or from very close machines
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 5:51 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Mon May 20, 2019 9:53 am
Posts: 1546
So Fiddle do you agree with the 'just get a 50% on these' for starters?


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 Post subject: Re: Simos off same arm or from very close machines
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 7:28 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Thu May 03, 2012 5:46 pm
Posts: 282
Location: Charlottesville, VA
The 50% is a starting point. Sometimes you get it right and kill the first bird on the first shot, then you have a go at the 2nd one. As you progress you finally figure out where to look, which one to shoot first and bust em all. At least that's the plan. :s


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 Post subject: Re: Simos off same arm or from very close machines
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:25 pm 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:20 pm
Posts: 23359
birdhunter39 wrote:
So Fiddle do you agree with the 'just get a 50% on these' for starters?

50% is better than a zero

_________________
The bitterness of poor quality is remembered long after the sweetness of low price has faded from memory, Aldo Gucci

Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience, George Carlin


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 Post subject: Re: Simos off same arm or from very close machines
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 9:58 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 9:59 am
Posts: 560
Good advice Mike and not trying to be a smart a$$ but impressed you didnt mention your book or a story about when you were chief target setter.
Advice is better received without bragging keep it up and a couple others take notes.



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