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 Post subject: New FITASC rules for 2021
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:28 am 
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Location: Southeast MI
For those who haven't yet pored over the 2021 FITASC rules, there are a couple of changes to be aware of.

The first is mainly for target setters and course designers, but it's worth knowing for shooters to know that the layouts in World Cup events have been properly prepared:
2.5.3 On a layout, at shooting positions with 3 machines and 2 doubles, there is either 1 simultaneous double or one rafale double, or even both: but there can’t be 2 doubles on report. To be used only in World Cup Events held in the U.S.

Another change is only for referees and how they record scores:
4.3 [NOTE this is mis-numbered in the NSCA Rules, it should be 14.3, it is in CHAPTER 14 - SCORECARDS] The total scores shall be tallied and the scores may be recorded electronically, written in ink or pencil and initialed by the field judge.

The last change is very important for all shooters, and it provides an actual rule for a common situation that was not included before in the rules and was handled differently by different referees. As background, consider the following long-standing rules:

7.3 In exceptional circumstances, a shooter may, in the event of his/her gun malfunctioning, borrow another shooter’s gun, with the latter’s agreement, in order to complete the round.
Complete or partial replacement of a firearm, mobile choke or barrel is allowed during the same round, between stands, or between single and double targets, though this must not cause any delay.
7.4 Once shooters are on the shooting stand, they are not allowed to make any of the changes provided for above.


These two rules state that once in the shooting stand, a shooter cannot change chokes. But what about the unfortunate shooter who is up first for singles, who is viewing the targets for the first time within the shooting stand? According to these rules, that shooter has no opportunity to change chokes before shooting singles, a patently unfair situation. Some refs allow that shooter to change chokes in the stand (violating 7.4), some allow the shooter to step out of the shooting station to change chokes (violating 16.11), and the rest simply shrug and say "Dem's da rules, sorry."

But now we have this, an actual, new, useful - and most welcome - rule:
7.11 While viewing targets, the shooter in the shooting ring will be allowed a reasonable amount of time to change choke tubes.

Note that it doesn't say "viewing singles targets," so it MIGHT also be applied to the shooter viewing a true pair during doubles (it certainly will on my parcours). And what is "reasonable amount of time," you ask? That, of course, still depends on the referee. But I wouldn't stand there trying to decide between IC and LtMod for more than 3 seconds. And also note that you have to have those chokes with you in the stand, no running back to your cart for your XF turkey choke.



_________________
Current NSSA/NSCA Rule book: http://nsca.nssa-nsca.org/rule-book/
Sporting Clays, 5-Stand, Super Sporting & Parcours de Chasse (FITASC)


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 Post subject: Re: New FITASC rules for 2021
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:40 am 
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Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 3:28 pm
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Thanks for your updates.


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 Post subject: Re: New FITASC rules for 2021
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:18 am 
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Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 5:35 pm
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If you have shot your singles and then return to the hoop for doubles why the hell would you want to change your chokes! You have already shot these targets as singles !


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 Post subject: Re: New FITASC rules for 2021
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:35 am 
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Syreel wrote:
If you have shot your singles and then return to the hoop for doubles why the hell would you want to change your chokes! You have already shot these targets as singles !


If it is a simo pair, you may be forced to take one of the birds in a different spot that calls for more choke.. Also, you may have decided after shooting singles that you should have used more choke.

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 Post subject: Re: New FITASC rules for 2021
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 10:56 pm 
Shooting Instructor
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Posts: 2597
Dr.

When I was active (I was on the rules committee for ten years) but not the French committee. If I remember right, the first shooter could view the targets and then step out of the hoop and change their chokes. Do you remember this? I haven't been active for the last 6 years but I shot my first FITASC in 1986. Maybe a little later. I was one of the earlier member of NSCA and was a member of USSCA starting in 1986. My NSCA Number is 500564 and I am one of the early life members. FITASC is the GREATEST clay target game ever invented. Too bad that the FRENCH were first.LOL

Mike McAlpine


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 Post subject: Re: New FITASC rules for 2021
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 5:06 am 
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Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 3:16 pm
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Location: Southeast MI
I am well aware that some referees allow the shooter to step out of the stand and change chokes after viewing singles, but as far as I know that has never been a written rule. What the rules do say (16.11), however, is that when a shooter steps out of the stand they are to make sure their score is correct - so a shooter cannot step out until they are finished shooting. Referees that allow a shooter to step out to change chokes are themselves violating the written rules.

Only those rules included is the current Rule Book can be enforced. "Rules" that aren't included in the Rule Book but everyone "knows" (like no talking on a parcour - what?) are neither rules nor enforceable. Unfortunately, the practice of referees allowing shooters to step out of the hoop to change chokes after viewing singles is in the latter category.

This new rule clarifies and standardizes this common situation, and has been needed for a long time.

_________________
Current NSSA/NSCA Rule book: http://nsca.nssa-nsca.org/rule-book/
Sporting Clays, 5-Stand, Super Sporting & Parcours de Chasse (FITASC)


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 Post subject: Re: New FITASC rules for 2021
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:49 pm 
Shooting Instructor
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Dr, I think the reason for this rule was because of the rule that a shooter could not change chokes while in the hoop. When being the first shooter in the hoop they were and I guess, still are allowed to view the targets from the hoop. Since this shooter couldn't change his chokes while in the hoop and while he was viewing the target for the first time, I believe that this is why it is done. The reff is simply following the rulebook as they interpret it.

I wasn't questioning you, I just wanted to know the answer. If this is not allowed, how can we be fair to those viewing the presentations? How will they know what chokes they need? They must be allowed to step out of the hoop and change their chokes. All of the other squad members can change their chokes before they shoot because they have viewed the targets. If this is not a rule, it should be revised to make it clear as what the rule book means. I too have shot a LOT of FITASC and in the past knew all of the rules. Some of these rules seem to make me question the Guys and Gals in France because they don't make common sense to me. Of course, I am just a Dumb old target setter, teacher and shooter with a lot of experience so I always ask to find out information and I always admit when I am wrong. Something that is lacking on this site.

Mike McAlpine


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 Post subject: Re: New FITASC rules for 2021
PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:38 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 6:40 am
Posts: 200
Agree with you Dr Mike, a useful addition that puts in writing what has been ‘custom and practice’ for a long while to allow the viewing shooter to change chokes provided they have them to hand.
However this only appears in the NSCA rule book, not the 2021 edition on the FITASC website.
This edition now has a section on release triggers

7.11 Release trigger mandatory marking
Any owner of a shotgun with a release trigger will affix, on the outer side of the buttstock, a sticker that sports a big “R” on a fluorescent background, as a warning.
If the law of the host country of an international competition prohibits the release trigger, this should be included in the competition program.
7.12 System with 1st release trigger and 2nd pull trigger (release–pull trigger)
7.12.1 First shot – no bird
At first shot, in case of a “no-bird” target (announced by the referee), or for any other reason preventing the shooter from shooting, he/she must:
Either keep the trigger pulled and call for a new target;
or keep the trigger pulled and push the opening lever to the side in order to open the gun; for semi-automatic shotguns, apply the safety catch and pull the cocking handle to the rear twice to empty the chamber and magazine.
or notify the referee, and fire the 1st shot in a safe direction indicated by the referee.
7.12.2 Second shot – no bird
After the shooter has fired his/her first shot and if the second target is “no bird”: The shotgun can be opened.
7.13 System with double release trigger
7.13.1 First shot – no bird Same process as at 7.12.1
7.13.2. Second shot – no bird Same process as at 7.12.1

Also Dr Mike you raise a good point about viewing simo or following pairs and wanting to change chokes. I have to say it’s not something I have ever been asked by a shooter. For me If it’s the 2nd double I always show after the 1st double so changing chokes would not be allowed. If it’s the 1st double then I would allow shooter to change chokes without delay.

Regards

Leigh

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 Post subject: Re: New FITASC rules for 2021
PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 12:06 am 
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Changing chokes in that situation is overrated anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: New FITASC rules for 2021
PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:01 am 
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Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 3:16 pm
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Thanks for the update on international rules, Leigh. I hadn't gotten around yet to downloading the latest version. Interesting that the International FITASC and NSCA rules are diverging a bit.

One can hope that the international committee adopt a similar rule in the near future regarding viewing targets and changing chokes.

The international addition of the procedures surrounding release triggers is, I think, helpful in that often people tend to freeze and near-panic when a no-bird is called when a shooter has a release trigger. Having a detailed procedure that folks can at least think about before it happens (and even though rare, it DOES happen) is useful. One can hope the NSCA adopts such a rule in the near future.

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Current NSSA/NSCA Rule book: http://nsca.nssa-nsca.org/rule-book/
Sporting Clays, 5-Stand, Super Sporting & Parcours de Chasse (FITASC)


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 Post subject: Re: New FITASC rules for 2021
PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 8:23 am 
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Joined: Wed May 16, 2018 7:55 am
Posts: 857
Feeeetask! wrote:
Changing chokes in that situation is overrated anyway.


I agree with you, most guys aren't changing chokes for the peg, they change the chokes for the entire parcour and just go. In my years of shooting fitasc, I can't recall anytime where someone viewed a single and then went on to change their choke based on that single.

Obviously it must have been such a problem that they addressed it, or they felt that the previous rule was just maybe so cumbersome this just made more sense? since in theory it's more simple.

Thank you though for posting the new rules. I'm sure they will come in handy to someone here at some point.

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 Post subject: Re: New FITASC rules for 2021
PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:55 pm 
Shooting Instructor
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Posts: 2597
Glad to hear of the changes. Since it has been about 6 years since I shot FITASC or any clay target discipline, I haven't kept up with he rules. I do remember the rules when I shot a lot.

Here is something that might interest you if you have anyone in a nursing home. I went to see my 93 year old aunt this morning and was told that people would be able to start visiting their loved ones again. No more than two at a time. We still have to wear masks and stay six feet apart. This is great news for my family. As I understand it, this was from the CDC but I live in Texas so it might be different in your state.

Mike McAlpine

Please forgive me but this is great news for many of us. Please don't call me on this not being related to guns.


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 Post subject: Re: New FITASC rules for 2021
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:14 am 
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Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2011 11:59 am
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I am a referee and was sent the updated FITASC rules for 2021. The choke change update reads: "When shooting a Non-World Cup FITASC event in the USA....When viewing targets; the FIRST shooter shooting SINGLES in the shooting circle, will be allowed a reasonable amount of time to change choke tubes, prior to shooting."


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 Post subject: Re: New FITASC rules for 2021
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:22 am 
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Interesting, because the current posted INTERNATIONAL RULES SPORTING FITASC (01/01/2021) contain no such rule.

But assuming that the international folks added this rule to theirs since Jan 1, 2021 and haven't yet updated their website.... it does reinforce the notion that in international competition (and World Cup FITASC events in the USA) the shooter that is in the shooting circle viewing single targets CANNOT change chokes before shooting the single targets, regardless of local custom, kindly referees or even an overdeveloped sense of fairness.

_________________
Current NSSA/NSCA Rule book: http://nsca.nssa-nsca.org/rule-book/
Sporting Clays, 5-Stand, Super Sporting & Parcours de Chasse (FITASC)


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 Post subject: Re: New FITASC rules for 2021
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:17 pm 
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Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2011 11:59 am
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DrMike,
Your supposition about the International FITASC rules may be correct.
The rule about choke changes and the first shooter shooting singles was sent to referees as a US addendum to the international rules. The rule I quoted from revises the international rules for use in "Non-World Cup FITASC events held in the USA only." Most years, that's pretty much all US FITASC events.
As you suggest, I assume shooters in Non-US events will NOT have the option to change chokes after being the first to view singles. Generally, in the US, the first shooter of singles will be allowed to change chokes after viewing the singles.


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 Post subject: Re: New FITASC rules for 2021
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:18 am 
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Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 6:40 am
Posts: 200
vancewebb wrote:
I assume shooters in Non-US events will NOT have the option to change chokes after being the first to view singles. Generally, in the US, the first shooter of singles will be allowed to change chokes after viewing the singles.


I can assure you that at events in the UK and across Europe the 1st shooter is allowed to change chokes immediately after viewing targets if they do so without delay, even though not written directly within the rules.
It is unfortunate that a rule added to the domestic USA book to help clarify the situation, has understandably created confusion as the implication is that the changing of chokes only applies to domestic USA shoots and excludes world cups etc.

Regards

Leigh


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 Post subject: Re: New FITASC rules for 2021
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:59 pm 
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Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2011 11:59 am
Posts: 21
Leigh, I have not shot in Europe so I do not know the actual practice of European referees. The 2021 International rules (7.3 and 7.4) that apply do not clarify the question for me. They state: "Complete or partial replacement of a weapon, mobile choke or barrel is allowed during the same round, between stands or between single and double targets....." (There is no mention of allowing changes after viewing the singles.). The next rule, 7.4 says: "Once shooters are on the shooting stand they are not allowed to make any of the changes provided for above" (in 7.3).
It is not my place to make recommendations to the international rules committee but it would be easy to clarify the situation with a sentence. That is what the US organization did by adding Rule 7.11 which clearly authorizes changing chokes in Non-World FITASC events in the US after viewing the singles. (I do not know if this rule addition is in general circulation or was only given to referees)
My referee interpretation of the international rule as it is currently written would be to disallow changing chokes after viewing singles.
Not arguing; just expressing a point of view.


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 Post subject: Re: New FITASC rules for 2021
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:24 am 
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And this is what frustrates me about FITASC rules. In ALL other competitions that I've been involved with, shooting or otherwise (and there have been many), the rule books are living documents and are added to or subtract from as necessary so that the competitors and referees alike all know exactly what the expectations are at all times - what is allowed, what is not allowed.

As vancewebb and other have pointed out, the international FITASC rules, and US rules up to this year, do not allow a shooter to view singles in the shooting station and then change chokes, whether inside or outside of the shooting station, before shooting. In fact, several rules combine to make sure this cannot happen. But it is "common practice" among referees to allow this out of fairness. Are we supposed to assume that the international FITASC folks have never considered the inherent unfairness of this situation, or they have and decided that it was part of the game? When a referee allows this, does he/she have a choice which rule they are violating?

Now consider the international competitor's point of view. Will the referee standing next to me throwing view targets allow me to change chokes before shooting singles, or will he/she apply the published rules as written and not allow it? If not, can I point out that the referee on Parcour 3 allows it? Will it get that referee in trouble, or have my singles scores taken away if it's discovered that I changed my chokes in the shooting stand?

As a referee, I absolutely DO feel that it is my place to recommend changes, for I am the one that is explaining, enforcing and occasionally receiving abuse because of the rules. In this and in all other instances I will enforce any and all rules that appear in the current rulebook, and I will not and cannot enforce any rule that does not appear in the current rulebook. This has always been my loud and consistent stance and plea to the Rules Committee(s) - give us a consistent and fair set of rules with which to play the game, and make ALL of the rules clearly known to everyone.

The US 2021 FITASC rules allow changing chokes in a reasonable amount of time in the shooting stand after viewing targets, without any mention of this not being allowed in World events. The new US rule does not restrict when this occurs so it must be allowed each time shooters are viewing targets, both singles and doubles (true pairs only). The International rules continue to disallow a competitor from changing chokes in the shooting stand, and from leaving the shooting stand before their score is complete.

_________________
Current NSSA/NSCA Rule book: http://nsca.nssa-nsca.org/rule-book/
Sporting Clays, 5-Stand, Super Sporting & Parcours de Chasse (FITASC)


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 Post subject: Re: New FITASC rules for 2021
PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 12:33 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2011 11:59 am
Posts: 21
I agree with everything you said about rules except about viewing targets/changing chokes in the US. The added US rule states: The FIRST shooter shooting SINGLES in the circle..... The rule says nothing about changing chokes before doubles. To me, specifying "before singles" allows the choke change only for singles, not for doubles. Anyway, that is the way I will rule in competitions unless the chief referee at a shoot says otherwise. I would ask in advance.


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 Post subject: Re: New FITASC rules for 2021
PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:04 pm 
Shooting Instructor
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Vance,

I would NOT think a shooter could change chokes in the hoop between the singles and doubles. I do think they may be able to change them in between the singles and the doubles outside of the hoop. I have shot A LOT of FITASC (More that most people) in my career and I did know the rules. Since I haven't shot a tournament since the 2016 nationals, I am no longer up on the rules. It seems that Dr Mike is the forum expert on FITASC. Is Joe Cantey still representing us in FITASC? When I was still shooting, Joe was the man to go to when there was a question about the rules. IS Dr. Mike an official, a referee, a member of the FITASC board or is he just a shooter? I would like to know these things and I am not trying to create a pissing match. {hs#

Mike McAlpine




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