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 Post subject: Re: Going for "fitting" please give me your constructive adv
PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:42 pm 
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nic
Not sure why you find my comment about the try gun a "joke"? Could you please explain? I owned and operated a gun store, Border Tackle and Guns in Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland for many years before I came here in 1997. I owned two try guns, one for side x sides and the other for over/unders. The business card for the store is on my web. site on the Bio section. The side by side try gun was a Boss from around the 1900's and the over/under is a Browning which I still use today. It will adjust for cast off/on, drop at comb, length of pull etc. I measure stocks with a Paul Hodgins drop gauge. I also had a hot oil bending jig in the back of the shop but I don't do that anymore, I just take the measurements.

http://www.peteblakeley.com




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 Post subject: Re: Going for "fitting" please give me your constructive adv
PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 7:27 am 
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lt2006 A real gunfitting. Exactly. {hs#


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 Post subject: Re: Going for "fitting" please give me your constructive adv
PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:19 am 
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Location: So Cal USA
Roger Gascoigne wrote:
Have you had a session with a coach to check your stance and mount are right?

Fitting a gun when your mount is inconsistent is not a way to heaven and high scores


That's what I've always heard. Until you have a good stance and a repeatable gun mount, you're just chasing your tail.

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 Post subject: Re: Going for "fitting" please give me your constructive adv
PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:55 am 
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Roger is 100% correct. But then, the Brits have been fitting shotguns by using pattern plates and try guns for over a hundred years. :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Going for "fitting" please give me your constructive adv
PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:14 am 
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pete blakeley wrote:
Roger is 100% correct. But then, the Brits have been fitting shotguns by using pattern plates and try guns for over a hundred years. :wink:


And going to the dentist for the last five?

:)

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 Post subject: Re: Going for "fitting" please give me your constructive adv
PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:21 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:14 pm
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ysr-racer. Intelligent answer. :roll:


Last edited by pete blakeley on Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Going for "fitting" please give me your constructive adv
PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:40 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:47 pm
Posts: 30
I have had fittings with Jack Mitchell and Keith Lupton. Sera and Pete Blakeley are absolutely correct. To have a proper fitting you need to have a consistent mount, need to start with a try gun or a gun of known dimensions that is close, and spend time shooting at a plate, then targets, then the plate, then targets, etc. I believe my fitting with Keith took 4 hours and included a try gun and the gun of known dimensions I was going to have Trevallion restock.


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 Post subject: Re: Going for "fitting" please give me your constructive adv
PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:13 pm 
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castnblast2 I know Keith from way back in the UK, he would come up to my gun shop in Scotland to fish the Border Esk. Keith and his brother Geoff ran the Yorkshire Gun Room. Great gun fitter, one of the very best. I have not seen him since I was the pro at the Dallas Gun Club, I think he is up in New York somewhere?

http://www.peteblakeley.com


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 Post subject: Re: Going for "fitting" please give me your constructive adv
PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:48 pm 
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Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 11:49 am
Posts: 498
I am with the anti try gun crowd. I would never have a "gun fit" from someone that couldn't make the changes to my gun.
Shooting is a journey not a end point. over the years you will change your mount and maybe the poi you want. I have a box of stocks I no longer shoot.
Two of the best stocks I have had made were from Tom Smith and Dennis DeVault. S&S made a great stock for my wife.


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 Post subject: Re: Going for "fitting" please give me your constructive adv
PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2021 6:07 am 
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nic wrote:
What a joke. When was the last one made? 70's? What company?

A try stock from a custom stock builder is a totally different thing.

nic to answer your questions from my experience ,
The last 'Try Gun' that I know was built , was last week , by John Wiseman of Wiseman's of Cannock . Wiseman build try guns for the British gun trade and shooting schools , last year they refurbished/ rebuilt a number of O/U try guns for Holland & Holland .
Blaser Gmbh have available a superb try gun available for retail which is actually functionally superb .
Yes I do realise that a custom made donor stock is available from many US stockers but they will require constant supervision from a skilled stocker being present and probably the addition of copious amounts of car body filler and whittling to achieve a satisfactory fit for the customer .
What is very important to establish is that the customer REALLY knows what they require , they have already have the ability and consistancy of a good , repeatable gunmount .
The 'try gun' is after all only a tool to assist a craftsman and it must be remembered that due to the adjustable elements incorporated in the try gun build the weight and handling will be TOTALLY different to the finalised gunstock . A trygun only assists with establishing the correct dimensions for the shooter, this is often overlooked and not factored in .
A prime example of quality custom stock fitting is H&H's incorporation of the 'swept comb' an idea perfected by Robert Churchill and taken to H&H by Norman Clarke .
I would think many visitors to this discussion will have no idea what a 'swept comb' is and what its function is .
And I am not joking .


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 Post subject: Re: Going for "fitting" please give me your constructive adv
PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2021 9:11 am 
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I’m going to assume that a swept comb is what we call offset these days. If I’m wrong I’m wrong.

I’ve never seen the value in seeing a “gunfitter” that can’t make the adjustments needed to the stock. So you spend all day shooting an adjustable gun that isn’t yours, cost you money, only to leave with measurements that can’t be done to the gun your shooting. Now you have to go meet with a stock guy and start all over.

Many people may be unable to mount their gun properly because the gun is too long, the pitch could be wrong or the comb is no where near where it needs to be. What’s the value of trying to learn to mount a gun in that situation?

You must creep up on a correct gun fit, it take work and many adjustments that can’t be done in one day. If it’s a person that doesn’t want a custom stock then just about all you can do is alter what you can on their stock and do the best you can with what you have to work with.

If I’m building a custom stock i want to do the fit work to the gun they’re actually going to be shooting. I build a pattern stock that we can use to get the correct fit. And of course try not to use a ton of body filler because as mentioned above they get heavy with a lot of bondo on them.

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 Post subject: Re: Going for "fitting" please give me your constructive adv
PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 1:10 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:16 am
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Well, I mostly agree with everyone here. As far a recoil Doug, and Ulysses make a lot of sense as does Pete. I too fit a lot of guns, although I don't do the cuttling. I do on my own guns but people like Doug and Mike L, who are actually stock makers are the ones I call for my students. I Know My Limitations when to comes to most things and while I thing I am a good fitter don't like cutting a high dollay piece of wood!!!!

Now here is what I think. Do what Ulysses said, shoot lighter and slower velocity ammunition and see is your main problem. I used mostly one ounce when I was still a competitive shooter. After I got older, I started to suffer from recoil fatigued. If that doesn't fix your problem, next go to the suggestions of having a professional to check your gun fit. They can find the problems that have been mentioned here. Things like LOP, drop at comb and pitch. These are the most common causes for excess recoil. Ammunition is the one thing I would check first, By the way, hwn I am doing a fit, I always like to check the Point of Impact too. This and the other things I have mentioned will give me many things to go one when I am doing a fit. Also, I make sure I watch the shooter from both sides and from the back. I want to see what what is happening to him or her as well as the POI. Just my opinion!!!!

For my money,

I would suggest Doug Carpenter or Mike Lepold. There are many other great fitters out there I am sure and ther a couple more on this thread but these are the guys that I have personally used. I would suggest references on the people you choose. I have given you one reference on Doug and Mike They are both Very good!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Going for "fitting" please give me your constructive adv
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:36 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:14 pm
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dcblvsh2 I'm not intending to be directly confrontational with your post but I'm afraid I don't agree. Although I did do the alterations to stocks and I did have a hot oil bending jig in my gun shop in Scotland pre-1997 I don't do the alterations any more over here in the US, these days, I only take the measurements. b] IF [/b] the guy that takes the measurements knows what he is doing and IF the guy that interprets the measurements is a skilled stocker with many years of experience, there is absolutely no reason to doubt that the stock will be perfect. Anybody that comes to me for a gun fit will get a perfect set of measurements and I either use Paul Hodgins in Utah (who is an ex Holland and Holland stocker) in the Dallas area I use either Todd Ramirez http://www.customgun.com (please look at the shotgun section) or Scott Mayes from the Beretta Galleries in Highland Park. In every case, the fit will be perfect.

As others have said, a perfect mount is a requirement for a perfect fit. If the person that comes for the fit brings his own gun and if his mount is perfect, I can give him an exact and precise alteration for a stocker to make. IMO 90% of shooters need work on their gun mount and the only way that will manifest itself is to shoot at a pattern plate. In other words, they can wriggle their heads about as much as they like but the only way to find out where a shotgun shoots is to shoot it. :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Going for "fitting" please give me your constructive adv
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:33 pm 
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I don’t disagree that a pattern plate and shooting targets isn’t a vital part of the gunfitting process.

I just think that when dealing with a new shooter that needs an LOP of 13” for instance can’t even come close to having a good gun mount with a guy they buy off the shelf that has an LOP of 14 1/2”.

Also the typical set of measurements you can get by shooting a try gun or a different gun for that matter may not yield every measurement needed to produce a prefect fitting stock. There are things on a stock that can’t be measured. They have to be shaped to fit the customer. This of course is only in the case where a stock is being built.

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 Post subject: Re: Going for "fitting" please give me your constructive adv
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:10 pm 
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To those who said use lighter loads. That should be tried FIRST.

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 Post subject: Re: Going for "fitting" please give me your constructive adv
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 4:58 pm 
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dcblvsh2 I agree. But in the past I have seen some horrific (and expensive) gun fits that don't even come close. The last article I wrote for Clay Target Nation magazine about fitting guns to ladies was changed in so many ways that it didn't appear to be anything like the article I submitted. I didn't write anymore.


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 Post subject: Re: Going for "fitting" please give me your constructive adv
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 6:17 pm 
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Pete,

When I was writing for Shotgun Sports, they never changed my wording in my articles. They did look at punctuation and made sure that I hadn't left out a word that made my sentence sound different. I always appreciated this. When, I write and article, I like to explain things in my own words. As many of you know, my style of teaching is asking questions that let the student figure out how to do things on their own. When I was a salesman, this is how I did my sales pitch. I guess that is not exactly right because I hated canned sales pitches. Knowing how to manipulate your customer or students to come up with the right answer themselves lets the student figure out what I am talking about. This is much more effective than telling someone how to correct a problem. They will remember the solution much better if they figure out things for themselves. I know someone will say that they don't like to be manipulated but we all are manipulated everyday. Just look at the politacions. Damn, I hate that example, because for the most part I don't care for the majority of them.

Mike McAlpine


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 Post subject: Re: Going for "fitting" please give me your constructive adv
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:54 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:58 pm
Posts: 155
Thanks everyone for all the input, I figured it'd be a lot to take in! First in regards to recoil, I understand about mass of shot, speed of shot, and weight of gun being the three main factors. When I first got my citori I had one day where the gun beat my shoulder bad because I shot almost 300 shells one afternoon, and some of them were hot target loads. That was last summer and have since added weight to the gun and don't shoot hot shells out of it. I now regularly shoot 150 shells in an outing and feel fine. Current ammo is 1 1/8 1150 fps. When I can find some one ouncers I will buy them. My mount is established, been handling the gun everyday since I bought it. I'll most likely get an adjustable comb put on, as I stated I'd like a touch of cast on. Thanks again for the info, whatever route I go, I will post results after the process is complete.


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 Post subject: Re: Going for "fitting" please give me your constructive adv
PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:42 am 
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Life, Don Currie has in the past come regularly to Game Unlimited near Hudson, Wisconsin. Passing along since you said if someone comes to Wisconsin you wanted to know. I have not used him for fitting or instruction, but am passing along the information. You can call Pete at GU to see if he will swing by this summer.

https://guhunting.com/pagetemplate.aspx?articleid=48

Don uses a try gun.

http://doncurrie.com/gun-fittings/


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 Post subject: Re: Going for "fitting" please give me your constructive adv
PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:44 am 
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Just to clarify the link I sent for Don at GU for fittings/instruction was in the past. With COVID not sure what will happen this year.




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