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 Post subject: Slow 20 yd right to left crosser.
PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:21 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 10:45 am
Posts: 847
Location: Utah
Yesterday I had one of those frustrating target presentations. Trap set at 4 o’clock approx 40 yds, not much height, dropping at 10 o’clock approx 20 yds out. 2x4 post in cage briefly obscure vision.
One of the times I hit it I got a late pull and did not see it at its pick up point, and broke it instinctively.
I found myself using a sustained lead, and measured the lead.
Should I have forced myself to use swing through?
I could not shoot it sooner due to the 2x4 post.
One thought is I focused to hard to soon seeing the bird come of the trap being a slow bird, bringing my eyes back to the bead.




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 Post subject: Re: Slow 20 yd right to left crosser.
PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:44 pm 
Limited Edition

Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2016 3:48 pm
Posts: 356
Is this a real question?

Stand further forward in the cage so the post is not in your vision

Oh and sustained is less than ideal on a slow target, try pull away


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 Post subject: Re: Slow 20 yd right to left crosser.
PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:54 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 9:07 pm
Posts: 2371
Browning Citori Guy wrote:
Is this a real question?

Stand further forward in the cage so the post is not in your vision

Oh and sustained is less than ideal on a slow target, try pull away


True and hold half way out to your break zone from your viewpoint. Generally on targets such as this with medium speed or less and you have an adequate time window, as stated......pull away. Just touch the target and ease on out.


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 Post subject: Re: Slow 20 yd right to left crosser.
PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 5:10 pm 
Crown Grade
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Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:20 pm
Posts: 23359
Was that post deliberately in the way as a limit post to prevent your swing from being too far back or was it simply the cage/stand upright?

_________________
The bitterness of poor quality is remembered long after the sweetness of low price has faded from memory, Aldo Gucci

Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience, George Carlin


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 Post subject: Re: Slow 20 yd right to left crosser.
PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 6:45 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 10:45 am
Posts: 847
Location: Utah
Quote:
. Was that post deliberately in the way as a limit post to prevent your swing from being too far back or was it simply the cage/stand upright?

It was to limit swing to far back, and someone shooting in the direction of other shooters.
You had a trap to your right 3 to 4 o’clock bird coming to you.


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 Post subject: Re: Slow 20 yd right to left crosser.
PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 6:52 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 10:45 am
Posts: 847
Location: Utah
Quote:
Is this a real question?

Stand further forward in the cage so the post is not in your vision

Oh and sustained is less than ideal on a slow target, try pull away


Yes it real, and I was not the only shooter having issues with this bird.
I tried standing forward, but I had to lean out of the cage, 2x4 brace in front of cage.
You are right about sustained lead. I have learned on other presentations sustained does not work well.


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 Post subject: Re: Slow 20 yd right to left crosser.
PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:51 pm 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:20 pm
Posts: 23359
Tenguage wrote:
Quote:
. Was that post deliberately in the way as a limit post to prevent your swing from being too far back or was it simply the cage/stand upright?

It was to limit swing to far back, and someone shooting in the direction of other shooters.
You had a trap to your right 3 to 4 o’clock bird coming to you.

Then my hold point (from what little I can ascertain and assume) would be about one to noon and break them at the peak (which I am assuming is about noon to eleven)

_________________
The bitterness of poor quality is remembered long after the sweetness of low price has faded from memory, Aldo Gucci

Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience, George Carlin


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 Post subject: Re: Slow 20 yd right to left crosser.
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:25 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 10:45 am
Posts: 847
Location: Utah
Quote:
. Tenguage wrote:
Quote:
. Was that post deliberately in the way as a limit post to prevent your swing from being too far back or was it simply the cage/stand upright?

It was to limit swing to far back, and someone shooting in the direction of other shooters.
You had a trap to your right 3 to 4 o’clock bird coming to you.

Then my hold point (from what little I can ascertain and assume) would be about one to noon and break them at the peak (which I am assuming is about noon to eleven)


My hold point was farther back.
I wish I could work on this again.
Change hold point, view point, and method.
Give me a long bird I am ok, but some of theses close birds give me fits.
I have recently started to use a cheat mount on some close targets, to get the gun out of the way, and get in sync with the bird using my hands, verses full mounted.


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 Post subject: Re: Slow 20 yd right to left crosser.
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 4:32 pm 
Limited Edition

Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2016 5:08 pm
Posts: 306
I’ve found that move-mount-shoot works well for me on those close slow targets. Also, inserting onto the back edge, pulling through the target and shooting. I much prefer shooting screamers and gun speed is my nemesis when the targets are slow; those two approaches keep me from speeding.


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 Post subject: Re: Slow 20 yd right to left crosser.
PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:00 pm 
Shooting Instructor
Shooting Instructor

Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:16 am
Posts: 2528
Ten,

Many times when I find at target that gives me trouble, I try this. My suggestion is to shoot right at the target. The reason I said to shoot right at it is to give you a place to start at. Most of the time a shooter will be able to see where they are missing the target and they find that it doesn't take much lead, especially if they are falling. If you miss, try a little under it.

Mike McAlpine
The Clay Target Academy

This is just my opinion and it may not work but what do you have to lose?


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 Post subject: Re: Slow 20 yd right to left crosser.
PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 8:53 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:53 pm
Posts: 1043
It sounds like this target is losing momentum and parachuting in, not knifing.

It also sound like it has an ambiguous line, therefore requiring a feel based move.

It is really important to land mark the line of this target and the true angle speed and distance and the BP.

Also remember the eyes only have 1.5 seconds of visual acuity therefore meaning do not use up your hard focus right away.

After hearing how you described this I would tend to hold on the line let the targets diminish in to my gun, run with the target and swipe the plotted line through the target feel the leading edge BANG!

Call this a touch and go, swing to, etc...

_________________
Bill Elliott
NSCA Certified Instructor


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 Post subject: Re: Slow 20 yd right to left crosser.
PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:39 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 10:45 am
Posts: 847
Location: Utah
Quote:
. Ten,

Many times when I find at target that gives me trouble, I try this. My suggestion is to shoot right at the target. The reason I said to shoot right at it is to give you a place to start at. Most of the time a shooter will be able to see where they are missing the target and they find that it doesn't take much lead, especially if they are falling. If you miss, try a little under it.

Mike McAlpine
The Clay Target Academy

This is just my opinion and it may not work but what do you have to lose?


I had a guy trying to coach me standing back always behind me telling me more lead. I ended up to what I perceived 3 foot lead, I thought to myself he’s not right.
I later stood directly behind him looking down his gun, he had very little lead. He ran that pair.
I also told him I was using a sustained lead, and he should have know to tell me use a different method.


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 Post subject: Re: Slow 20 yd right to left crosser.
PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:50 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 10:45 am
Posts: 847
Location: Utah
Quote:
. It sounds like this target is losing momentum and parachuting in, not knifing.

It also sound like it has an ambiguous line, therefore requiring a feel based move.

It is really important to land mark the line of this target and the true angle speed and distance and the BP.

Also remember the eyes only have 1.5 seconds of visual acuity therefore meaning do not use up your hard focus right away.

After hearing how you described this I would tend to hold on the line let the targets diminish in to my gun, run with the target and swipe the plotted line through the target feel the leading edge BANG!

Call this a touch and go, swing to, etc...


Not much height coming of the arm of the trap, so it had more spring than a floating target. Were most tried to break it it was dropping down.
I am going to try his method you described, trying to work on not hard focusing to soon.


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 Post subject: Re: Slow 20 yd right to left crosser.
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:56 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 9:07 pm
Posts: 2371
Tenguage wrote:
Quote:
. It sounds like this target is losing momentum and parachuting in, not knifing.

It also sound like it has an ambiguous line, therefore requiring a feel based move.

It is really important to land mark the line of this target and the true angle speed and distance and the BP.

Also remember the eyes only have 1.5 seconds of visual acuity therefore meaning do not use up your hard focus right away.

After hearing how you described this I would tend to hold on the line let the targets diminish in to my gun, run with the target and swipe the plotted line through the target feel the leading edge BANG!

Call this a touch and go, swing to, etc...


Not much height coming of the arm of the trap, so it had more spring than a floating target. Were most tried to break it it was dropping down.
I am going to try his method you described, trying to work on not hard focusing to soon.


Yeah, we know about that squad chatter and they may mean well but seldom solves the problem.

It appears that other than the post obstructing your view off the plate, your visual is okay as it moves on out on it's target line.

Using an IC or Lt. Mod. choke and holding half way out between your break zone and viewpoint (where you first see the entire clay and not the flash) let the tgt. visually touch your muzzle (now you are connected to the target) and move slowly on out, just in front and under the target. If your shooting the tgt. late as it transitions to dropping, more under than in front. You say it's in the dirt about 20 yds. out and if you are shooting it late, probably an IC would be the better choke choice. On the clock face a 4 to 10 trajectory as it's speed is bled off, takes very little lead....stay under.


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 Post subject: Re: Slow 20 yd right to left crosser.
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 11:01 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 10:45 am
Posts: 847
Location: Utah
Quote:
. Tenguage wrote:
Quote:
. It sounds like this target is losing momentum and parachuting in, not knifing.

It also sound like it has an ambiguous line, therefore requiring a feel based move.

It is really important to land mark the line of this target and the true angle speed and distance and the BP.

Also remember the eyes only have 1.5 seconds of visual acuity therefore meaning do not use up your hard focus right away.

After hearing how you described this I would tend to hold on the line let the targets diminish in to my gun, run with the target and swipe the plotted line through the target feel the leading edge BANG!

Call this a touch and go, swing to, etc...


Not much height coming of the arm of the trap, so it had more spring than a floating target. Were most tried to break it it was dropping down.
I am going to try his method you described, trying to work on not hard focusing to soon.


Yeah, we know about that squad chatter and they may mean well but seldom solves the problem.

It appears that other than the post obstructing your view off the plate, your visual is okay as it moves on out on it's target line.

Using an IC or Lt. Mod. choke and holding half way out between your break zone and viewpoint (where you first see the entire clay and not the flash) let the tgt. visually touch your muzzle (now you are connected to the target) and move slowly on out, just in front and under the target. If your shooting the tgt. late as it transitions to dropping, more under than in front. You say it's in the dirt about 20 yds. out and if you are shooting it late, probably an IC would be the better choke choice. On the clock face a 4 to 10 trajectory as it's speed is bled off, takes very little lead....stay under.




I actually came back to work on this bird. And add tall dead grass making less break point.
Lol. He was telling me break point to high and left, I told him the bird goes down here. You can stand back in a distance, but in the cage the bird will look much different.
Pull away or swing through... thanks


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 Post subject: Re: Slow 20 yd right to left crosser.
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 1:56 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 9:07 pm
Posts: 2371
Yes Tengauge, my squadmates were discussing this very topic yesterday......what you see viewing the pair behind the stand is not necessarily what you see in the stand. I've had tgts. as others have, I'm sure, that were clearly visible 3ft. out of the stand but once in the stand, the vision went to .....


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 Post subject: Re: Slow 20 yd right to left crosser.
PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 1:28 am 
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Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2008 7:18 am
Posts: 1338
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
I'd go swing through. Mount on the a$$ of the bird come through gently to about a foot. But I'm not an instructor and this is the internet.

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-Jason

Youtube


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 Post subject: Re: Slow 20 yd right to left crosser.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:24 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2014 8:34 pm
Posts: 698
This sounds like a quartering away bird, not a crosser.




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