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 Post subject: Muzzle insertion point
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:20 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:58 pm
Posts: 155
In your shooting, what are the factors that help you determine your muzzle insertion point when viewing a new target for the first time? When do you have a shorter versus a longer insertion point from the target?




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 Post subject: Re: Muzzle insertion point
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 4:31 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2018 7:26 pm
Posts: 51
I kill every target wherever it looks the absolute clearest. 1st show bird I analyze target not using any hands or gun at all, just watching it to figure out what kind of target I’m seeing, angle/speed/distance.
I choose where it looks best for a break point (or break zone depending on type of target). Then my hold point is 1/3-1/2 back from break point toward where I first see the target. If I’m maintaining lead throughout the shot, my insertion point will be in front of the target. How much or how far in front is dictated by the speed and “feel” of the target. Faster target=more lead=farther out in front insertion.
If the target is very slow without much “feel” then I insert muzzle right on it and match it (pull away).
If it’s a quartering target without much angle/lead, I insert a little behind the target and slowly overtake it.

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 Post subject: Re: Muzzle insertion point
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:35 pm 
Shooting Instructor
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Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:16 am
Posts: 2528
Life,

Muzzle insertion point is determined by the method you choose to achieve lead. I am guessing you may be thinking of breakpoint. I, like Dmar usually look for the place I can see the clearest but sometimes the setter will dictate something different. ("Inside the Mind of a Target Setter") i posted the name of my book because It will answer a lot of shooters questions as to how to handle the setter and his tricks of the trade. Life, If you will PM me, I will explain what I am talking about. I think this is the way I am going to answer many questions in the future.

Mike McAlpine


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 Post subject: Re: Muzzle insertion point
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:22 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:53 pm
Posts: 1043
Everything starts from the break point for me..this is where you see it the clearest not your squad mates...

From there I look at the character of the target angle speed distance...define my break hold and visual point along the line.

Quick window targets are usually mounted and usually a collapse maintained move..

Time to run with the target I will synchronize and separate.

Hope this helps!!

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 Post subject: Re: Muzzle insertion point
PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 12:10 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:58 pm
Posts: 155
eyeonbird wrote:
Everything starts from the break point for me..this is where you see it the clearest not your squad mates...

From there I look at the character of the target angle speed distance...define my break hold and visual point along the line.

Quick window targets are usually mounted and usually a collapse maintained move..

Time to run with the target I will synchronize and separate.

Hope this helps!!


Hey, thanks a lot! That makes a lot of sense. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Muzzle insertion point
PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 6:42 am 
Shooting Instructor
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Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2003 10:19 pm
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Location: Tampa Florida
Its also a function of your target strategy and target management.

A tricky setter will try to put you off shooting where the target is best seen.

This is way too complex to explain on the internet, but you may have to take a target soon in its flight, to get the the second shot, or later to be in a better place to take the second shot.

Its experience, coaching AND PRACTICE.

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AMICSI, CPSA Certified Coach
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Phone 813-907-7340
Check out our E-books on Amazon here
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 Post subject: Re: Muzzle insertion point
PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:27 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:14 pm
Posts: 2123
Roger. Good post! {hs#

www.peteblakeley.com


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 Post subject: Re: Muzzle insertion point
PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:48 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2010 12:49 pm
Posts: 3270
Excellent points, Roger.

I always have a tip of my hat to a FITASC target setting who makes you a bit uncomfortable having to take a target in a true pair in a much different spot/place than you took it as a single.


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 Post subject: Re: Muzzle insertion point
PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:05 am 
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Location: Tampa Florida
I would do that in report pairs and true pairs for my monthly NSCA shoots. Bruce Buck had an article on how I set my shoots.

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AMICSI, CPSA Certified Coach
NSSA Level 1 Skeet Instructor
Phone 813-907-7340
Check out our E-books on Amazon here
http://www.rogergascoigneshootingcoach.com/books.html


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 Post subject: Re: Muzzle insertion point
PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:01 am 
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You guys ought to come shoot in La and Tex as all the target setters do this all the time.

They are intentionally trying to take you out of your comfort zone and force you to shoot NOT IN your personal sweet spot.

This is mastered in practice. (and not here on the Intermess.)

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 Post subject: Re: Muzzle insertion point
PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:28 am 
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Also , muzzle insertion point is not important. It is where your muzzle ends up when you slap the trigger. There are lots of ways to get to where you need to be.

Learn them all.

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 Post subject: Re: Muzzle insertion point
PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:14 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2010 12:49 pm
Posts: 3270
sera wrote:
Also , muzzle insertion point is not important. It is where your muzzle ends up when you slap the trigger. There are lots of ways to get to where you need to be.

Learn them all.


Gosh Sera, that flies in the face of what I've been told by some pretty good instructors. Zach went into the importance of knowing the best (proper?) muzzle insertion, as that lets you see the target best as well as getting your muzzle to where it needs to be the easiest.

Where your muzzle ends up is vital to be sure, but it seems so is starting (inserting) them in the right place from the get go so as to make it easiest to consistently get them where they need to be.


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 Post subject: Re: Muzzle insertion point
PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:55 pm 
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Then tell Digweed he's wrong.

PLUS all the sustained lead shooters , plus the modified pull away shooters like Tre' Sides. Or the ride the target pull away shooters like Brad Kidd.

There are an infinite number of ways to get in front....to the right place in front.

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Our prentice Tom may now refuse
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 Post subject: Re: Muzzle insertion point
PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:52 pm 
Shooting Instructor
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Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:16 am
Posts: 2528
Digweed is unorthodox at the least. The things he does works for him but not many others. George has been my friend for almost 30 years and we have talked about this. Learn the tricks of the great setters and this will give you the knowledge to figure out what they are doing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mike McAlpine
The Clay Target Academy

By the way, I have noticed that many of the posters fail to mention my suggestions. That's okay but I think these people are making a mistake. Especially you life. There are many good and even great suggestions here but then there are some that don't make a lot of sense. {hs#


Last edited by Mike McAlpine on Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Muzzle insertion point
PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:25 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2010 12:49 pm
Posts: 3270
sera wrote:
Then tell Digweed he's wrong.


Nope don't want to do that. But do you want to tell Zach he is wrong?

Quote:
PLUS all the sustained lead shooters , plus the modified pull away shooters like Tre' Sides. Or the ride the target pull away shooters like Brad Kidd.


Huh? Don't you realize that sustained lead shooters, modified pull away shooters, and pull away shooters all have an insertion point that benefits where they will see the target the best and get their muzzle into position the easist and have more consistent results?

Quote:
There are an infinite number of ways to get in front....to the right place in front.


True enough, but they all aren't optimum for consistent results and getting the muzzle where it needs to be the easiest.


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 Post subject: Re: Muzzle insertion point
PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 6:44 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2011 7:29 pm
Posts: 2828
Location: Central Maine
Everything before the shot is triggered is important.

An incomplete or imprecise plan.....set up and move puts the shooter is a very bad position and although it can often be recovered on a pair, do it often enough and targets the shooter is fully capable of breaking will start to bleed into O's on the scorecard.

The details matter down to all of it. Visual pick up point, hold point, insertion and move to the break point. Every shooter may have their own variation of all that but it is important to do what you do with purpose and consistency.

Target setters are skilled and using our weaknesses against us. It takes focus to balance that out.

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 Post subject: Re: Muzzle insertion point
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:06 pm 
Shooting Instructor
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Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:16 am
Posts: 2528
Let me ask all of you a question about insertion point. Would you use the same insertion point for the following methods? Swing through, Pull A Way, Maintained lead, Intercept, or Collapsing lead? If you answered yes, let me know what your address is and I will send you a good book on golf. To be more precise, let me explain the incertiton you the insertion point for all of the above methods.

Method Insertion Point
_____________________________________________________________________
Swing Through - Must be behind the target and on the line.

Pull A Way -Normally on the leading edge of the target and on the line.

Maintained Lead - Mount in front of the target and on the line to the lead you expect
to use.

Intercept -Can use most any incertition point. Most shooters mount behind
and low. You can mount to any height as long as it is not over the
line.

Collapsing Lead -Mount way in front of the target and move your muzzle slowly
and let the target catch up to the lead.


I hope you can see that INSERTION POINT DOES MAKE A DIFFERENCE? Don't believe everything to read on the internet. You sometimes you can get Bad advice. All but one reply sounds okay to me. One is BS!


Mike McAlpine
The Clay Target Academy




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