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 Post subject: Eye Site and Target Setters
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 9:06 am 
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A lot of sporting clay shooters are getting older and their eye site just isn't as good.

Should target setters think about this when setting targets?

Young target setters can see the targets really well but that doesn't help the older shooters. IMO



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 Post subject: Re: Eye Site and Target Setters
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 9:21 am 
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I think that would depend on the shoot; if it something like the now concluded SE regional; no - those have to be set for the top dogs. If it is at your local club for a regular monthly shoot where the crowd is much older, then the setter should take that into consideration

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 Post subject: Re: Eye Site and Target Setters
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 9:28 am 
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But what happens when the targets are set for only the top dogs?

I guess the shooters who don't shoot like the top dog should stay home and not spend their money.

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 Post subject: Re: Eye Site and Target Setters
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 9:33 am 
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Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 1:25 pm
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Location: New Mexico
Quote:
But what happens when the targets are set for only the top dogs?


The lower skill shooters generally all shot lower scores. But they all shot the same targets, a few got their punches (and maybe payouts), and it generally made little difference except their "number" was smaller than normal.

It often does make for more histrionics on the course from a few of the shooters. But I just consider it practice on targets that are harder than normal.

good luck, garrisonjoe


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 Post subject: Re: Eye Site and Target Setters
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 9:48 am 
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Terry,

I think oneounce nailed it down very well for you.

I’m going to be 69 in a couple weeks, and have learned to enjoy the game for what it is, and go and have some fun. A course set with all very difficult, ball busters isn’t going to be a lot of fun for me, so I now tend to stay clear of those. A course set with some very challenging big boy targets, plus some “you better hit all of these” targets, and some very highly technical targets is a lot of fun for me, and I tend to gravitate towards them.

Aging places limitations on us older guys, and there’s no way around it. The Big Bang’s are having tougher and tougher targets. There’s not much that can be done about that, either. The Veteran and Super Veteran classes are now filling up with some of the elite shooters. That’s just the way it’s gotten to be, and again, no way around it.

I think it’s up to us older guys to figure out what works for them, and go to those kinds of shoots. Have you tried ZZ Birds? That’s filled in going to Big Bangs for me. ZZs are just more fun than the Big Bang’s at this point for where I’m at.


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 Post subject: Re: Eye Site and Target Setters
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 9:55 am 
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I wish I had a ZZ ring near to me; I'd stop shooting as much 5-stand and sporting to offset the cost for ZZs.

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 Post subject: Re: Eye Site and Target Setters
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 10:02 am 
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Oneounce,

As I’ve said before, ZZs have enough paybacks that they end up not being nearly as expensive as going to a multi-day Big Bang. Especially for “Seniors”, where you have a nice subdivision. Then there’s a prelim event, front 15, back 15, P-Draw, and the Miss and Out that all have pay backs.


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 Post subject: Re: Eye Site and Target Setters
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 10:06 am 
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Terry--you are going into snowflake mode.

Stop before you melt.

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 Post subject: Re: Eye Site and Target Setters
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 10:08 am 
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KRIEGHOFFK80 wrote:
But what happens when the targets are set for only the top dogs?

I guess the shooters who don't shoot like the top dog should stay home and not spend their money.


I disagree. I think your attitude should be that you’re going to thrilled you see the tougher targets that challenge to top shooters, and probably get to watch them work.

Getting old (count me in) is tough to take some days, but the great thing about our game is you don’t get kicked out for doing so. Enjoy the ride, whatever lumps it brings.


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 Post subject: Re: Eye Site and Target Setters
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 10:33 am 
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Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 11:51 am
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A lot can be done helping eyesight. If needed cataract surgery is a game changer. I notice many shooters using darker lens than should be. Eyeware, chose a color that benefits seeing a target. Eye excerize helps. I'm blessed with better than average eyesight, but done a lot to complement that..


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 Post subject: Re: Eye Site and Target Setters
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 10:49 am 
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Flyingtargets! wrote:
KRIEGHOFFK80 wrote:
But what happens when the targets are set for only the top dogs?

I guess the shooters who don't shoot like the top dog should stay home and not spend their money.


I disagree. I think your attitude should be that you’re going to thrilled you see the tougher targets that challenge to top shooters, and probably get to watch them work.

Getting old (count me in) is tough to take some days, but the great thing about our game is you don’t get kicked out for doing so. Enjoy the ride, whatever lumps it brings.


Yep, if all I wanted was easy, I would not have spent the money I did to go to the SE Regional. I did it because of the tougher targets and I could shoot FITASC, subgauge FITASC and Super Sporting - the three events that are not typically thrown at monthly shoots around here.
My wish list would have liked to see the American Field Sporting at a big shoot like this; it was fun to shoot (at the very same club) about a month or so ago.

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 Post subject: Re: Eye Site and Target Setters
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 11:32 am 
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Terry,

My mentor, Bob Brister and talked about your question way back in the early 1990's. You see, I didn't at that time worry about the older shooters. Heck, I was still in my early forties and had great eyes and reflexes. In those days, Bob would hammer me about setting targets that the older crowd couldn't see and have time to shoot at. Well, he findlay sold me and made me understand that a target setter should set for all shooters, not just a few big guns. I never worry about the big guns and their scores. They will always shoot at the top no matter what you set.

Any setter that doesn't set for the whole is not a good setter in my book. They are trying to make a name for themselves at the cost of our sport. I can remember many times in my target setting career when I killed a lot of the top shooters on targets that they thought looked easy but were not doing what these guys and gals thought they were. I have had some of the best shooters in the world come up and tell me that they loved my courses. Then they would say, you got me on station whatever. Then some of the weaker class shooters would also say things like I ran that station that had the fifty yarder in it. Boy was that fun! I am coming back to shoot your targets. I also have had a few top guns eat my a$$ out because they didn't shoot very well. One of my great friends and a lady shooter told one of the Big Guns after he lambasted me in front of her that if he had trouble with these targets maybe he should hook up to his big Airstream trailer and go to San Angelo and take some lessons from me. She then said that she had shot a great score on the course he was complaining about. Boy was I proud of her!!!!!! This guy said he was going to look for me and give me a piece of his mind. I found him and walked up and told him that I heard he was looking for me. he was startled when I did this and said, no I haven't been looking for you. I told him my name and the courses I had set and he crawfished. I never heard anything from him for the rest of the shoot. At the awards one evening all of the target setters got a standing ovation. This included me.

Terry, you are 100% right in what you are asking about. Setting targets for just the top shooters will break the sport. People don't like to get their asses kicked every time they go to a tournament. I am NOT ADVOCATING setting fluff. I do want to set a station or two that has some teeth in them. But I want all of my shooters to have a fund day or weekend. This is just a game and no one is making money shooting. Trap handicap and flyers plus ZZ Birds are the games that have money in them. I personally won a lot of money shooting trap over the years. and this was while shooting in the rain and wind. I always loved shooting in the wind because I practiced in the wind so I wouldn't be afraid of it. That was my trick way back in the 1970's and 80's and some in the nineties too.

Mike McAlpine

You know, someone once told me to practice your worst presentation until it became you best presentation. I did this and let me tell you it works. Of course, you, then will have another worst presentation so you must keep doing the same.

Mike McAlpine
A setter for all shooters

I forgot something, some one said that it depends on the tournament. I will agree with about half of his statement. For me I always try to set my best targets and a championship tournament. I have set most all of them all over North America. I look at the scoreboard just to see what top shooters are their. Then I up my course difficulty rating of my courses some depending on the type of shoot but I still SET FOR EVERYONE. After all, we all pay the same money. I expect all scores to bee down some.


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 Post subject: Re: Eye Site and Target Setters
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 12:14 pm 
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Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 9:59 am
Posts: 564
We have a local club that started setting targets so close because his main group is older and no middle aged guys are hanging around to replace them.

Where do you stop in order to keep shooters happy at some point it makes no sense.

i dont think the average age changes that much that clubs should dumb down the targets so every 70-80 year old can hit 80 %
Every club has to pick the difficulty for their main group or what they want to be known for.

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 Post subject: Re: Eye Site and Target Setters
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 4:08 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2010 12:49 pm
Posts: 3327
Mike McAlpine wrote:
Terry,

My mentor, Bob Brister and talked about your question way back in the early 1990's. You see, I didn't at that time worry about the older shooters. Heck, I was still in my early forties and had great eyes and reflexes. In those days, Bob would hammer me about setting targets that the older crowd couldn't see and have time to shoot at. Well, he findlay sold me and made me understand that a target setter should set for all shooters, not just a few big guns. I never worry about the big guns and their scores. They will always shoot at the top no matter what you set.

Any setter that doesn't set for the whole is not a good setter in my book. They are trying to make a name for themselves at the cost of our sport. I can remember many times in my target setting career when I killed a lot of the top shooters on targets that they thought looked easy but were not doing what these guys and gals thought they were. I have had some of the best shooters in the world come up and tell me that they loved my courses. Then they would say, you got me on station whatever. Then some of the weaker class shooters would also say things like I ran that station that had the fifty yarder in it. Boy was that fun! I am coming back to shoot your targets. I also have had a few top guns eat my a$$ out because they didn't shoot very well. One of my great friends and a lady shooter told one of the Big Guns after he lambasted me in front of her that if he had trouble with these targets maybe he should hook up to his big Airstream trailer and go to San Angelo and take some lessons from me. She then said that she had shot a great score on the course he was complaining about. Boy was I proud of her!!!!!! This guy said he was going to look for me and give me a piece of his mind. I found him and walked up and told him that I heard he was looking for me. he was startled when I did this and said, no I haven't been looking for you. I told him my name and the courses I had set and he crawfished. I never heard anything from him for the rest of the shoot. At the awards one evening all of the target setters got a standing ovation. This included me.

Terry, you are 100% right in what you are asking about. Setting targets for just the top shooters will break the sport. People don't like to get their asses kicked every time they go to a tournament. I am NOT ADVOCATING setting fluff. I do want to set a station or two that has some teeth in them. But I want all of my shooters to have a fund day or weekend. This is just a game and no one is making money shooting. Trap handicap and flyers plus ZZ Birds are the games that have money in them. I personally won a lot of money shooting trap over the years. and this was while shooting in the rain and wind. I always loved shooting in the wind because I practiced in the wind so I wouldn't be afraid of it. That was my trick way back in the 1970's and 80's and some in the nineties too.

Mike McAlpine

You know, someone once told me to practice your worst presentation until it became you best presentation. I did this and let me tell you it works. Of course, you, then will have another worst presentation so you must keep doing the same.

Mike McAlpine
A setter for all shooters

I forgot something, some one said that it depends on the tournament. I will agree with about half of his statement. For me I always try to set my best targets and a championship tournament. I have set most all of them all over North America. I look at the scoreboard just to see what top shooters are their. Then I up my course difficulty rating of my courses some depending on the type of shoot but I still SET FOR EVERYONE. After all, we all pay the same money. I expect all scores to bee down some.


Well put, Mike.

I’ve always felt that SETTING THE COURSE FOR EVERYONE is a good thing. But, the reality of today’s Big Bangs is that they really are set for separating the elite guys. I’ve come to understand that, and if you look at the attendance of these shoots, they are doing extremely well.

Until people stopping going to these shoots, it’s all going to stay that way. But just the opposite is happening — more and more people are going. So, I think we have to expect the degree of difficulty to increase even more as time goes on. It’s what sporting clays at the top level has developed into.

I think another issue is that there’s a number of these difficult targets that people have never seen before. It’s hard to consistently hit a presentation that you don’t have some practice time on.

While I certainly enjoy courses set up like Mike advocates, I believe if you go to the Big Bang’s you’re going to see mostly all big boy, extra tough targets. And that’s OK too.


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 Post subject: Re: Eye Site and Target Setters
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 4:10 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:12 am
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A club needs to know it's clientele. If you can't compete, shoot the easier courses or take a down class. As we all age our skills tend to diminish. That's why we have concurrents.


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 Post subject: Re: Eye Site and Target Setters
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 4:13 pm 
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You go to a big shoot and --one day--you're in the 8 am flight. Some targets will be "in the sun." Sorry. My 5 yr old granddaughter is tougher than you b-babies.

Jeez Louise :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Eye Site and Target Setters
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 12:33 am 
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Terry,
No one should have an expectation that the target setter owes them anything when it comes to a legit NSCA shoot. Sure the targets have gotten more difficult over the years, but everything changes, and most of us geezers understood that change was a constant before we attended our first shoot.

We all lose a couple of miles off our fastball as we age. That's comes with the territory.

Slow

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 Post subject: Re: Eye Site and Target Setters
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 5:48 am 
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I think Terry is not referring to the Big Bang shoots. He’s been to the last couple shoots I attended and there were several stations that were impossible to see. Even the young guys on my squad couldn’t see them. One of the older guys on my squad was pretty disappointed in his sore that day. Unfortunately if you can see them you can’t shoot them.

The overcast days in late winter early spring can offer some pretty tough lighting.

It’s not that Terry is a snowflake. Everybody wants to do well.

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 Post subject: Re: Eye Site and Target Setters
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 6:17 am 
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Mike hit it on the head! St for everyone , they all pay the entry fee and without them you ain't got a shoot !
No killer stands to sort out who's a BIG boy all fair targets for everyone whether 16 or 65+
Distance is not really a factor, if it's 50 yards full face on and large window it's a fair target ! A gravity rabbit at 20 yards can be a real b***h !
My motto was black clays, high in the sky and plenty of time for 2 shots!


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 Post subject: Re: Eye Site and Target Setters
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 6:33 am 
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I was at a shoot one time when a shooter shot 100 on Saturday.

Later that day the target setter told me I could be sure nobody would shoot 100 on Sunday.

On Sunday the high score was 86 and the targets hurt everyone.



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