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FITASC Question

5K views 61 replies 25 participants last post by  lt0026 
#1 ·
I ask this for clarification....
My sons are 12 and 14 and they have been shooting SC and FITASC for less than a year. They have only shot 4 FITASC events...and for the most part, have been given grace if they committed a procedural error (i think they have had 2 dry mounts in 1 round....but not been presented with a penalty). I am appreciative of the grace and the boys, from embarrassment, have learned their lesson...as well as what the actual consequence should have been.
So, here is the area of clarification needsd. A month ago, my 12 year old was in the circle, shooting his singles. He waa looking to the right ( the bird was coming from behind his left shoulder). When the squad realized he was looking in the wrong direction, after the bird was 3/4 of the way through its flight, they all said "bird up".....or various hints to let him know to look around......the bird hit the ground before he saw it.

At the end of the round, the referee thanked and congratulated the boys for shooting safely and for their scores. In addressing the lost target that the 12 year old didnt see, he was told that the refererre saw him looking in the wring direction....and even though she saw it, she wasnt allowed to interfere.....however, she said that had he asked her where a certain bird was coming from, she would have been allowed to tell him.

Yesterday, on a wooded FITASC course, there was a target back to his left in the woods. He looked at the menu, didnt see the target placard and asked the ref where the target was...this referee pointed in an almost disgusted manner to the left....

After the round, I politely asked about the interaction and he said the shooter can ask, but the referee is not allowed to tell him. He said that it is in the rule book. I can't seem to find it....and don't want there to be any confusion moving forward. Can anyone help on this? Thanks.
 
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#2 ·
I've shot FITASC all over Europe and UK and some in the States ! The referees have always told me where abouts it's from and where it's going especially if it's poor background.
The ref will say for example "It appears from behind that big tree, high up and goes to your right " .
He will not show you the bird.
 
#4 ·
When shooting the targets (not show birds) the ref has no obligation to say anything. The ref is supposed to make sure the rules are followed, score and keep everyone safe. Not help a competitor. Some will tell you what the next target or pair is on the menu.
 
#6 ·
Tadman

There is no explicit rule either way in the written regulations, it's really down to Referee training and common sense. The lady referee got it right, the assumption is that the shooter in the circle is following the menu board and knows where the targets are coming from and the ref is not there to correct a shooter if they address the wrong target. However if the shooter is unsure about a target and asks the referee, then the ref should answer the query accordingly.

Regards

Leigh
 
#7 ·
Unfortunately it depends on who you are, and if the referee knows and/or likes you.
I was on a squad where a well known/advanced shooter was shooting his singles.
Referee stated " single C" ...Shooter setup for wrong target, referee cleared her throat loudly and stated "single C" again but louder before shooter called pull. Shooter adjusted to correct target, said "thank you" and called for his bird

It couldn't have been more blatant, but those can be the perks some people get?!?!
 
#8 ·
23pair said:
Unfortunately it depends on who you are, and if the referee knows and/or likes you.
I was on a squad where a well known/advanced shooter was shooting his singles.
Referee stated " single C" ...Shooter setup for wrong target, referee cleared her throat loudly and stated "single C" again but louder before shooter called pull. Shooter adjusted to correct target, said "thank you" and called for his bird

It couldn't have been more blatant, but those can be the perks some people get?!?!
Actually, I did the same thing for newbies (actually ESPECIALLY for newbies)

Did the same AHEM when they started to do a pre-mount and then politely wagged my finger with a smile.............
 
#9 ·
Ref's were correct in both cases. I believe it falls under no coaching to talking, even from the squad. So, given the kids age and experience, a bit of help is not going to be objected to by anyone. When your kids shoot New Style, where every peg has a new layout and group of machines, after a few days, the memory gets a little worn out. Can't tell you how many times I just watched all the view pairs, watched 2-3 shooters, I step in the hoop and my mind goes blank, I can't remember where the 1st bird is coming from. You can ask the Ref, she'll usually say something like "over there", and draw a circle with her finger around half the field in front of the shooter. Kind of helps, but really just rubs it in how old I'm getting.... Old Style is easier to remember where all the machines are hidden behind things. New Style isn't as bad if all the machines are visible, not usually the case. Teach the kids to chalk it up to experience, its a lesson learned. Some calls will go their way, some won't. Over time they all even out, and just put it behind them and focus on the next presentation, as in life. Good job getting them on Fitasc at an early age, it is a great game.
 
#10 ·
I've missed a bird because I set up for the wrong target. Everybody saw me doing it, nobody said anything to me. I still got a shot off at it, but by the time I saw it, it was wayyyy out there. Having said that, if I see a young shooter doing that, I might have a coughing fit or something.

Had I asked, I'm sure I would have been told. Where I shoot the guy pushing buttons, will call out what the next birds are.
 
#11 ·
Thanks to everyone who has weighed in. I am not really sure that I understand all of the intricacies of the FITASC rules......even after reading them several times.....but I do think I understand the overall intent. To tell a competitor where a target is coming from....after he asks...does not seem like coaching...but the act of asking certainly violates the no talking rule. This same ref "warned" one of my boys' 18 y.o SCTP teammate for talking after he missed a bird and turned around to a teammate and said "I didnt have my cheek down." So, it would seem that each ref has his/her own slight variation of rule enforcement. The long and short seems to be that it is a grey area and it would be best for the boys to learn and know the rules and be courteous and understanding of the differences in referee styles. Thanks again for trying to help clear this up.
 
#12 ·
Despite widespread and common belief, there is no current, written rule against talking on a parcour, or even coaching for that matter. As always, if you get a referee that tells you that you can't talk on a parcour (or anything else for that matter), politely ask to see the rule (referees are required to have them in their possession when refereeing). If they can't show you the rule, politely ask how they can enforce a rule that doesn't exist.

I have (often) shushed spectators and non-shooting competitors simply because I can't hear the shooter call (and often whisper) "pull" as we are standing outside in the open wearing hearing protection.

For the question at hand, I fully agree with LeighH... I have seen many shooters set up for shots in ways that made me think they forgot which target was next, only to unwind in the proper direction as the target is thrown. I've learned to give the shooter the benefit of the doubt that she, and only she, knows what she's are doing in order to address a particular target. Occasionally, however, what looks like a mistake is, in fact, a mistake. The only way I can prevent that situation is to insert myself into the competition, and I won't do that.

I've also been asked by shooters countless times "is C the high chondelle?" and always promptly say either "yes" or "no, the low crosser" as appropriate.

I've also seen countless times when a shooter obviously sets up for a high shot and doesn't see the low crosser that is the next target. Typically the rest of the squad starts shouting "LOOK DOWN!" which results in a fast correction, successful or not. Everyone laughs, including me, as I announce the result and move onto the next target.
 
#13 ·
I say let someone tell him where the target is coming from, give the shooters a fair chance don't try to take a bird away.
It's like the safety rule the first thing we learn is gun safety and then we make a rule if you leave your safety on its lost Target I don't know why anybody thinks a shooter would gain anything by leaving a safety on half of them flinch when their safeties are on and I'm sure it makes him more nervous to shoot after that.
If there's no way to gain an advantage then why have a stupid rule.
 
#14 ·
Funny but despite no rule , I have heard the no coaching/no helping stuff 100's of times. I have shot a lot of Fitasc since 2004. There is no rule and leaving it to ref discretion is an awful idea.

I shot the Worlds many years ago in the USA and the Brit refs gave a young Brit shooter 4 targets he did not hit. They also did not give a Brit expat a target he hit. I said something and got chewed out by the ref. BTW, the ref was standing in the wrong place.

If you ever get reffed by Dr Mike (and I have) , you will not see this horrid reffing. He's excellent.
 
#15 ·
I have been the shooter and the ref when someone was obviously looking the wrong way for a bird. as a ref, I always just say "Your next bird is a C Charlie bird" if they are looking for some other bird. They get the message.

As a shooter I have had the ref do that for me too. I appreciate it, and do not feel that there is anything wrong with the ref doing that. If it was a World Championship or other Major event then maybe the ref should just allow the shooter to work it out himself. But on 99% of the other shoots I see no problem with the ref restating which bird is coming next if the shooter is obviously looking the wrong way.
 
#16 ·
I was shooting the world shoot in northbrook. There were ref's form many countries and the US. All were helpful to shooters looking in the wrong direction [are you ready for your #3 bird sir?]. A few minor dry mounts [ is the squad ready sir].
Best was myself, had my embroided fitasc line on my vest, with three chalk lines put on by other judges. The chief referee asked if I needed it measured, I pointed at the tic tac set of lines and he explained that none were correct. He also explained to the squad why. It was a total Great experience.
 
#18 ·
Easy, lose some weight, fill up that pocket with 2 boxes of shells, other meas as well.
 
#19 ·
KRIEGHOFFK80 said:
The only thing that I have a problem with is my FITASC sewed on line.

I have had a ref measure it and then put a line on my vest because they say my line is to low.

How can it be to low?
If you carry your shells in your vest pockets, the weight will eventually stretch the vest, moving the line down. If you get caught in the rain with a full load of shells in the pockets, the vest will stretch even faster.
 
#21 ·
Capt Rich said:
had my embroided fitasc line on my vest, with three chalk lines put on by other judges.
One of my pet hates, a permanent line as long as it is a minimum of 25cm below top of shoulder is the shooters line for me. I hate seeing shooters roll up to a peg with more stripes than a Zebra, total confusion!
Especially on a major shoot with tight squad times, it puts minutes on each squad if the Refs faf about.

If the line is too high like the guy below who purchased a new branded shirt with a ready sewn line, only then would I re-mark (it would probably be OK height for American Field Sporting)



Regards

Leigh
 
#23 ·
Terry,

I believe that the referee is trying to be kind to you by giving you a higher yet still legal shooter's line. If you are comfortable with an existing, permanent line that is more than 25 cm beneath the shoulder, I would think that you could tell the ref, "Don't mark me and I'll start my gun beneath the permanent line."

I have one vest that has stretched a bit and if I have a full box in my pocket, the embroidered line is more than 25 cm from the top of my shoulder. If a ref mentions that, I simply say, "That's ok, I'm good with it" and I've never had one insist on drawing a new line.
 
#24 ·
If there is a permanent line on a vest that is more than 25 cm lower then the top of the shoulder, I'll ask the shooter if he/she wants to run with it. 90% of the time the answer is yes and we are off. The other 10% there is total surprise that the line isn't where it's supposed to be.
 
#25 ·
moocher said:
I have been the shooter and the ref when someone was obviously looking the wrong way for a bird. as a ref, I always just say "Your next bird is a C Charlie bird" if they are looking for some other bird. They get the message.

As a shooter I have had the ref do that for me too. I appreciate it, and do not feel that there is anything wrong with the ref doing that. If it was a World Championship or other Major event then maybe the ref should just allow the shooter to work it out himself. But on 99% of the other shoots I see no problem with the ref restating which bird is coming next if the shooter is obviously looking the wrong way.
A referee reminding a confused shooter to address the proper target in sequence is neither required nor prohibited by rule. I believe it is a magnanimous and fair gesture, and I do so for all shooters at ALL events. Don't believe that a shooter should miss a target because they misread or forgot the menu sequence. Often witnessed during very hot weather. This sport is about the shooter vs the target.

Excessively loud talking is clearly interference for both referee and shooter, which the referee should remedy. A polite request by the referee to stop always solves the problem. Same goes for really loud AC compressors on nearby vehicles waiting to shoot. Turn them off please.

Coaching is no longer prohibited, but I frown upon in-the-box advice. Shooters can chat strategy etc. all they want while waiting to shoot - sotto voce per favore. Referees should not offer any advice before or during the tournament. If shooter wants my opinion they are welcome to see me at the end of the shoot.
 
#26 ·
a tip and trick that has helped me is when shooting singles, I say what letter I'm on while I'm putting new shells or a new shell in, this way if I gap a letter and or make a mistake on what letter I'm on, it catches the ref attention. It has worked for me in the past, but like many fitasc shooters, I have fallen victim to the "where in the hell did that bird come from again" mistake and I have missed singles and or pairs because of it.

In previewing the singles though, every ref that I can think of has done a great job of saying "behind the tree floats down and lands by the bush" giving a great description of what the target is doing. I've had refs say "high curling battue can't shoot it over there cause you can't see it" just little tips like that.

I had a interesting one this past weekend, as a lefty I had a trap on my left that I could see clearly, and I could see the clay launch from the arm, I called pull and moved right on the flash as I saw it go, and I crushed it pretty early in it's flight path, the ref actually turned to me and said "now George you and I both know that was a really quick move and mount, however benefit cause your a lefty and I know that you saw it. Almost like he was giving me a warning, but he really wasn't. Advantages go both ways in this game. Most if not all fitasc refs want you to have a good time, they want it to be fair, and they want the rules to be followed, it's not asking too much.
 
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