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 Post subject: "To cone, or not to cone...."
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 7:03 am 
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I have a BT-99 that I've been shooting for three years or so. Not bad, averaging 23's in practice and league with the occassional 25. Last weekend shot 94/100.

As far as I can tell, the gun is stock. Adjustable comb, chokes, etc.

I'm wondering about removing the forcing cone. I have some on my trap team telling me it's the best thing ever, some that are saying it's not a big deal.

So what's the collective thought here? Is it worth the expense to have the forcing cone removed? What could I realistically expect from the gun if I have it done?

I have questions. You have answers.

Thanks!

Michael



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 Post subject: Re: "To cone, or not to cone...."
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:09 am 
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Do you mean lengthening the forcing cone? If you are getting blotchy patterns, with gaping voids, on paper then lenthening the cone may help. It may be cheaper and simpler to try a different load or ammo to find one that shoots a more even pattern if that's the problem keeping you from a 25.

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 Post subject: Re: "To cone, or not to cone...."
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:51 am 
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Lengthened forciing cones tend to produce better patterns, generally speaking. Don't fall for the ultra long cones of 4-5", though. With modern wads/ammo about a 1.25" one is all that's needed.

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 Post subject: Re: "To cone, or not to cone...."
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 10:50 am 
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I've considered lengthening my forcing cones, but never done it. Typically it costs about $70/barrel to have it done. The big question is, will it gain you a bird or two? No one that I've talked to can answer that question. Here's the way my thought process went:

Will it reduce felt recoil? No. Newton's third law tells us that by removing metal from the barrel it will increase recoil slightly, but you won't feel it.

Will it improve patterns? Yes - probably. The theory of better patterns through less deformed pellets is sound. This may allow you to use a more open choke. The improved pattern consistency would give you a more evenly spread pattern and therefore it will have less holes. This should allow you to use a more open choke more effectively. A larger pattern will make it easier to hit the target. I haven't seen any proof of this.

How does it affect my barrel? This is the question least asked on this subject. If you have chrome lined barrels it will remove the chrome lining. This removes the rust protection provided by that lining. If you properly maintain your gun, this is not an issue. Still, it's the one thing that has kept me from having this process done to my guns.

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 Post subject: Re: "To cone, or not to cone...."
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 11:51 am 
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The critical part of lengthening the forcing cone is to polish the cone to the same finish as the bore. I do this after reaming. This reduces friction and plastic fouling. 10Tenner


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 Post subject: Re: "To cone, or not to cone...."
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 1:27 pm 
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Sorry.... of course I meant lengthening the forcing cone. It's hard to think clearly early on a Sunday morning.

Thank you for the response on the 4"+ "Super Cone". I had noticed that reading in the gunsmith forum this morning and was wondering.

The main thing that I'm hearing from other shooters at my club is that lengthening the forcing cone reduces felt recoil and results in better patterning of the shot. Less shot deformation seems to be the main result of lengthening the cone.

But again.... just curious as to IF it's worth the cost or not. I guess it's a case by case basis.

Michael

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 Post subject: Re: "To cone, or not to cone...."
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 2:47 pm 
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It will make the cone(s) easier to clean, and keep clean. Depending on the load, you might gain 1, at the outside 2% in pattern. That's the most I've ever gotten out of any, no improvement using the very best components in shells.

Improve felt recoil??? Some sure claim it does but I don't see any way. If anything, the untouched cone will cause more friction on the ejecta, the ejecta should see drag and pull the barrel forward. Even though the recoil pulse is over and done with by the time the wad hits the cone, that's what I see happening.

I've got two precisely identical barrels for my main shooter, one with a highly polished/lengthened (3.5") cone and one bone stock. Switching those barrels out with each other, I certainly can't tell the difference.

But, whatever floats your boat, it's your money and if it's something you want--------go for it. Make sure your barrel is safe to do, also.

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 Post subject: Re: "To cone, or not to cone...."
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:39 pm 
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Ultimately, I see forcing cone lengthening like porting. I won't do it to a gun I have, but it wouldn't stop me from buying a gun I liked.

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 Post subject: Re: "To cone, or not to cone...."
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 6:45 pm 
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I don't know of any particular reason not to do it.


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 Post subject: Re: "To cone, or not to cone...."
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 6:57 pm 
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Bill M. wrote:
I don't know of any particular reason not to do it.

I can oly think of one...it may not need it. I was going to have mine lengthened in the Citori but when the gunsmith measured them they were already 1-1/4" so, have it checked out first. Also have your chokes measured to see how true they are while you're at it.

Mac

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 Post subject: Re: "To cone, or not to cone...."
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 10:26 pm 
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Bill M. wrote:
I don't know of any particular reason not to do it.

If your barrels are chrome lined, it will remove the lining from the cone. That may not hurt the barrel, but...

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 Post subject: Re: "To cone, or not to cone...."
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:31 am 
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Fair warning: to avoid inevitable paradigm shift, non-believers should not read included postings.
----------------
OK, now.
Who remembers these blasts from the past?
Rastoff?
SuperXOne?

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=141064

Same here, but even
Jugchoke got in with both feet, as well.
Rastoff got in twice before I even knew what was up. Good job, there.

This was probably the best discussion in "Many Moons", and I always do appreciate detailed postings, without a bunch of badgering to spoil the fun.

This one went on for 3 PAGES.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=136731

Have at it and come back with some knowledge, or at least think so much that your head hurts.

[email protected]


That's right: I do super-long forcing cones in all gauges, and everybody that gets them, loves them. If you haven't had one, you don't know what you are missing. Not all forcing cones are created equal.

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Articles on every page.
Article 3 pictures improper or dangerous choke installations, article 1 has explanatory illustrations, and article 2 has info. about bore/forcing cone improvements/limitations.


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 Post subject: Re: "To cone, or not to cone...."
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 2:59 am 
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Location: Gippsland, Victoria Australia
There is more unsupported BS about this topic than any other in the history of shotgunning. If you remove comments from all the money grabbing 'Gunsmiths' out there who see this myth as a cash cow akin to snake oil, and you remove all the comments from 'experts' who have never shot a comparative pattern in their life, and you actually look for some scientific evidence to support the practice of mangling forcing cones, well, you will find there is none. Nothing that can be actually supported by proper science.
You will find that there is an abundance of airy fairy wishful 'theory' that is completely made up, just because it 'sounds good'.
Save your money and find a better cartridge that suits your particular gun. Then get some coaching and practice a bit more. That will make a difference.

"There is none so blind as those who don't want to see"


Last edited by aussieblackduck on Mon Jun 29, 2009 11:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: "To cone, or not to cone...."
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:45 am 
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Hi Kirby. I haven't heard from you in some time. I hope all is well.

I do indeed remember those discussions. I've spent much time thinking over the lengthened forcing cone. As far as improved patterns goes, I believe that it will improve the pattern. If I'm not mistaken it was even your articles that show the most logical and substantial evidence of what a lengthened cone can do.

Even though I can make an argument for lengthened cones reducing recoil, I'm not a believer. I've shot many guns since that last thread. Some with barrel work and some without. To me, the recoil felt the same. Yes, there's a lot to be said about time and pressure and friction and...., but as far as recoil is concerned, I don't think it makes a noticeable difference.

Then there's the removing the chrome thing. Can you re-chrome the forcing cone once it has been lengthened? I don't know how the chrome helps the shot, but it certainly helps the protection of the bore. I'm more concerned with that.

I think I've been consistent on this subject. Lengthened forcing cones should improve your pattern. Will it reduce recoil? Yes, I believe that with sensitive equipment you can measure the difference. With your shoulder I don't think you will feel a great difference.

At this stage in my shooting career I don't think I will lengthen my forcing cones. Maybe I'll see something that will change my mind as this thread continues.

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 Post subject: Re: "To cone, or not to cone...."
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 11:00 am 
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Like I say; there are cones and then there are good cones, since anybody can claim to make a "long forcing cone" but not necessarily know which end of the tool to start in the chamber. If you used one of those examples to get your knickers in a twist, I am sorry that you have been "scammed".
(BTW, I think that a properly fit firearm and good coaching can certainly benefit shooters, too)
That does nothing to change the evidence that I did post in those previous threads, and if you haven't seen the entire sections that I wrote, you haven't thoroughly examined the supporting evidence "for" vs. any personal anecdotal evidence that makes somebody "against". There are posted details, plus some shooters also posting had some enlightening anecdotal evidence.

Remember, plenty of the things we do and believe are based on "anecdotal" evidence, since a collection of such is what makes many scientific studies: the collection of evidence that has small differences and a gathering of the end results. Each statement here is a small piece, but since it isn't directly attached to a study, are we to totally discount what Rastoff, for instance, says that he saw and felt? Should anybody listen to what YOU personally have to say about anything, if you don't have results that are strictly scientific and not just nay-saying (or gain-saying)?

Perhaps this better illustrates the concepts I have realized.
Image

There are very few shooters with anywhere near the exposure to various types and quality variances pertaining to barrel work than a shotgun barrelsmith, such as myself. I call my shots as I see them, and needed to see for myself just what I could do by forcing cone alteration for myself, so some of my test results are posted for all to see, and that is not the "comments from a money-grubbing gunsmith", but I'm sure that those comments were not directed at me, so no insult taken. Too bad all of the gunsmiths haven't tested their results of their work the same as I did in the beginning.
That's why many cones will have variable results and comments from shooters attest to that. Each shooter that does not have any exposure to a really good forcing cone and know what could have been is not in the best position to judge, the same as comments from somebody with little exposure (to barrels properly altered, shell patterns examined, etc.) should always be qualified with these surrounding parameters.

Like this: "I once tasted a beer, and it sure was nasty. Beer is all nasty." Expert? Novice?

If the overall quality of a barrel is less than perfect, there can be effects from parts not directly related to the forcing cone, such as a rough bore or crooked choke hole. Those may create difficulties that affect barrel test results, but doesn't mean that a proper barrel can't show improvement.
I have been pointing out the fact that crooked choke tube holes are a fact of life, and many of those posting after my comments and pictures are unable or unwilling to admit what can be seen in photographic evidence and recommend a crooked shooting barrel be corrected by getting shims to adjust the stock to alter the point of impact.
Shims are fine to allow a gun to be more aligned to a shooter's body and face, but to have the shooter's face over to one side to correct for a crooked choke is barely a "band-aid" approach that does nothing to correct pattern degradement from that crooked choke.

Is this a figment of my imagination, or does a crooked choke hole sometimes have undesirable consequences?
Image

Does this obviously offset forcing cone have no effect on the shot? If it does, then how can altering a forcing cone NOT have some possible effect?
Image

[email protected]

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Articles on every page.
Article 3 pictures improper or dangerous choke installations, article 1 has explanatory illustrations, and article 2 has info. about bore/forcing cone improvements/limitations.


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 Post subject: Re: "To cone, or not to cone...."
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 11:49 am 
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The Radio Cowboy wrote:
I'm wondering about removing the forcing cone. I have some on my trap team telling me it's the best thing ever, some that are saying it's not a big deal.
Learn to point the darn gun properly, keep your head down and follow through and leave the forcing cones alone. Whizzy polished forcing cones and other pricey gun tricks won't make up for poor form and lack of concentration.


Last edited by Wobbly1 on Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: "To cone, or not to cone...."
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:27 pm 
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My doubles gun barrels are presently at Wright's in Pinckneyville, Illinois having the forcing cones lengthened to their standard 2.5" as well as having choke work done. I recommend you talk to Stu Wright and others with expertise in barrel modification to help determine what is right for you. You can reach Wright's at 618 357-8933 or check out the website at:

http://www.wrightsgunsmiths.com/index.htm

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 Post subject: Re: "To cone, or not to cone...."
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 7:29 pm 
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prairieviper wrote:
My doubles gun barrels are presently at Wright's in Pinckneyville, Illinois having the forcing cones lengthened to their standard 2.5" as well as having choke work done. I recommend you talk to Stu Wright and others with expertise in barrel modification to help determine what is right for you. You can reach Wright's at 618 357-8933 or check out the website at:

http://www.wrightsgunsmiths.com/index.htm


Yep. Talk to the snake oil salesman. He knows what you need. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: "To cone, or not to cone...."
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:45 pm 
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I have never understood why Perazzi machines the shortest forcing cones for their barrels in the business. Very short abrupt things that go from a min. of about 3/4" to 7/8" max. Perazzi has never hesitated to innovate, and I believe if they thought long tapered polished cones were better, than Perazzi barrels would have long tapered polished cones, and they don't.

This is not a personal opinion of long forcing cones which I strongly favor and I did have Briley do my MX-8 forcing cones (I am totally convinced that I got significantly reduced felt recoil!). My wish is that Perazzi would articulate their reasoning behind this. They don't and they won't. But for sure, their engineers have a definite opinion and preference, and it is for tight and short!

I will also add that Perazzi is not stupid and they will give in to shooter pressure. Within the last several years they are offering optional overbored 18.7 barrels, much, much lighter if you specify that, and with longer polished cones. But the total of these would amount to about 2% of their historical tota production.


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 Post subject: Re: "To cone, or not to cone...."
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:02 pm 
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Quote:
My wish is that Perazzi would articulate their reasoning behind this.


I believe I read that, many places in Europe have banned plastic wads. A fiber wad is not as expandable as a plastic wad and would release a lot of expanding gases during the jump from the shell to standard bore diameter. The shot is not wrapped in plastic and is scuffed to all heck anyway, so the benefit of the long cone isn't seen with the fiber wad; well, the benefit of reduced recoil would be there because of lost velocity.



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