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 Post subject: How is fps tested if it comes up at a ATA match?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:59 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:35 pm
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So if i reload, and someone thinks they are over speed how does that work?

Do they test on a "Standard Gun" and get different results then what i would of gotten at home with my gun and my chrono?

Or do they ask your recipe, verify it and what fps it should create from an official source like Hodgdon or Lyman manual, then weigh your components to confirm it is correct for that recipe? This would be the easiest for me by far, then I can just duplicate 1325 1oz recipes and feel safe.

Also how would it work if you used bushings and the powder drop was just a tad high, but by far the closest one?

Anyways, I just wanted to know how this rule worked, I am not looking to circumvent it, but i get anxiety about a lot of things and wanted to be sure how it worked, and it did not seem clear in the rule book. It just seems to mention the judges will take the ammo and get back to you with a result.




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 Post subject: Re: How is fps tested if it comes up at a ATA match?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:57 am 
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Is there really a speed limitation for trap loads?


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 Post subject: Re: How is fps tested if it comes up at a ATA match?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 9:38 am 
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Back in the 90's we had a jackpot added to our registered handicap. 1 dollar per shooter per handicap event accumulated until someone won the caps 3 times. It had grown to just over $1900.00 when a shooter that had won it 2 times was doing well. Another shooter complained that this shooter seemed to be shooting mag field loads. One of our club officials ask this shooter for one of his shells to be tested during the event.

Shooter won the caps and was given the 1900.00. Later the shell was disassembled to find an once and a quarter of 6's illegal load by ATA rules. Shooter was contacted by management to return the 1900 and refused, keeping the money. Management filed a complaint with the ATA and after investigation, ATA officials decided to cancel the shooters membership for one year and losing all access to registered shooting for a year. Could have been less or more time including lifetime.

If its ATA registered targets and a complaint is made then confirmed. That is the risk. Every ATA board meeting there will be complaints made, investigated and then decided on. All is public info until litigation.

Maltz

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 Post subject: Re: How is fps tested if it comes up at a ATA match?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 9:46 am 
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Quote:
Is there really a speed limitation for trap loads?

Yes, there is. The rule book is fairly specific, if somewhat arbitrary.

Some major shoots, such as handicap events at the Grand American, require factory loads, which are pretty easy to monitor.

I've shot a fair number of registered targets over the past couple of decades and never seen anybody's ammo challenged. As far as how your ammo would be tested, it would probably depend on the basis of the challenge. As someone who is sometimes responsible for managing registered shoots, I would expect the following:

If challenged on the basis of shot payload or size, it could be as simple as cutting open a shell to weigh the payload and check the shot size.

If challenged on the basis of velocity, I would suggest sending sample shells to a reputable test lab for standardized testing and rule on the basis of those results.

As I said, I've never seen it happen. Unless you are doing something really unusual, I see no reason for concern.

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 Post subject: Re: How is fps tested if it comes up at a ATA match?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 9:59 am 
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kalabaddon wrote:
So if i reload, and someone thinks they are over speed how does that work?



It is in the rules.

Quote:
Any load with a velocity greater than 1290 FPS (Feet Per Second) with
a maximum shot charge of 1 1/8 ounces, or 1325 FPS with a maximum shot charge of 1 ounce, or 1350 FPS with a maximum shot charge of 7/8 ounces or less, as measured in any individual shotshell. These velocities are maximum and no individual shotshell shall exceed these limits for the designated shot charge.

In addition, no load containing more than 1 1/8 ounces or any shot larger than Number 7 1/2 can be used. Shot charges are maximum and no charge may exceed the charge amount by more than 3%. Steel shot in Number 7 will be acceptable as long as velocity criteria are the same as for lead shot shells.

4. Any shell loaded with black powder.

5. Shoot Management, ATA official(s) or any contestant may challenge the load of any other contestant. Any challenge shall be initiated so as to not disrupt the harmony of the shoot or interfere with other contestants not involved with the challenge. On receipt of a challenge management or ATA official(s) shall obtain a shell or shells from the challenged party, and if after examination, management or ATA official(s) find the contestant violated the ATA rule, he/she may be disqualified. Any such initiated challenges, determined to be abusive in nature, will be referred to the ATA Executive Committee for disciplinary action.


Challenges are exceedingly rare and, as mentioned in the rules, harassment isn't tolerated. (Any such initiated challenges, determined to be abusive in nature, will be referred to the ATA Executive Committee for disciplinary action.)

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 Post subject: Re: How is fps tested if it comes up at a ATA match?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:08 am 
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Last weekend (Sunday) Registered shoot at High Lakes.... Afton, IA.

New shooter and recent ATA member. Shooting handicap with new Remmy nitro's too hot for registered trap. Sporting clay loads marked on the box and cases. Another shooter noticed and complained to shoot management. All parties were present and the young new shooter had gone to Walmart buying cap ammo and didn't know the ATA rule. The complaint shooter understood and dropped the complaint. Shoot management took the young shooters name off the awards list for handicap only. Everyone left happy and no official complaint filed.

It can happen if the shooter fails to read rules and or does it on purpose.

Maltz

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 Post subject: Re: How is fps tested if it comes up at a ATA match?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:15 am 
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Good! After all, "A. PURPOSE OF THE ATA The purpose of the ATA is to promote and govern the sport of amateur trapshooting throughout the world."

You aren't promoting anything by creating a 'walk of shame' environment for new shooters that make a simple mistake.

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 Post subject: Re: How is fps tested if it comes up at a ATA match?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:48 pm 
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Joined: Sun May 17, 2015 6:25 pm
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Location: On the wrong side of the river, Austin TX
RandyWakeman wrote:
kalabaddon wrote:
So if i reload, and someone thinks they are over speed how does that work?



It is in the rules.

Quote:
Any load with a velocity greater than 1290 FPS (Feet Per Second) with
a maximum shot charge of 1 1/8 ounces, or 1325 FPS with a maximum shot charge of 1 ounce, or 1350 FPS with a maximum shot charge of 7/8 ounces or less, as measured in any individual shotshell. These velocities are maximum and no individual shotshell shall exceed these limits for the designated shot charge.

In addition, no load containing more than 1 1/8 ounces or any shot larger than Number 7 1/2 can be used. Shot charges are maximum and no charge may exceed the charge amount by more than 3%. Steel shot in Number 7 will be acceptable as long as velocity criteria are the same as for lead shot shells.

4. Any shell loaded with black powder.

5. Shoot Management, ATA official(s) or any contestant may challenge the load of any other contestant. Any challenge shall be initiated so as to not disrupt the harmony of the shoot or interfere with other contestants not involved with the challenge. On receipt of a challenge management or ATA official(s) shall obtain a shell or shells from the challenged party, and if after examination, management or ATA official(s) find the contestant violated the ATA rule, he/she may be disqualified. Any such initiated challenges, determined to be abusive in nature, will be referred to the ATA Executive Committee for disciplinary action.


Challenges are exceedingly rare and, as mentioned in the rules, harassment isn't tolerated. (Any such initiated challenges, determined to be abusive in nature, will be referred to the ATA Executive Committee for disciplinary action.)


I've always wondered about rule #4 and what conceivable advantage that would give a shooter. I go to several non-ATA trap shoots every year where black powder is required.

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 Post subject: Re: How is fps tested if it comes up at a ATA match?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:04 pm 
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ka-hack..gag choke cough cough hack cough.


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 Post subject: Re: How is fps tested if it comes up at a ATA match?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:12 am 
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Location: somewhere east of the I-95 corridor, until you get to connecticut. but you can bank on vanzant, mo..
ata is the police. they enforce rules.
part of being a good upcoming competitor is to ensure new shooters know the law and abide by it. it makes and molds future outstanding American citizens.

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 Post subject: Re: How is fps tested if it comes up at a ATA match?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:44 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun May 17, 2015 6:25 pm
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Location: On the wrong side of the river, Austin TX
maltzahn wrote:
Last weekend (Sunday) Registered shoot at High Lakes.... Afton, IA.

New shooter and recent ATA member. Shooting handicap with new Remmy nitro's too hot for registered trap. Sporting clay loads marked on the box and cases. Another shooter noticed and complained to shoot management. All parties were present and the young new shooter had gone to Walmart buying cap ammo and didn't know the ATA rule. The complaint shooter understood and dropped the complaint. Shoot management took the young shooters name off the awards list for handicap only. Everyone left happy and no official complaint filed.

It can happen if the shooter fails to read rules and or does it on purpose.

Maltz


I wouldn't have known that myself, not that I would have bought those rounds for trap. My reloads are less than ATA maximum both in payload and velocity because I have found out that low recoil helps my scores a lot more than filling the sky with shot does. However, now I'll think twice before putting my reloads into Remington Nitro Sporting Clays boxes.

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 Post subject: Re: How is fps tested if it comes up at a ATA match?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:24 am 
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Something everyone should know ...... Gun clubs that offer trapshooting universally endores/adopt ATA rules for their range. ATA rules are tested, proven, comprehensive and easy for club board members to use while managing trapshooting on premise. Registered and non registered targets. Even ATA safety rules practice trap.

The gun club may add rules, delete some or only use part, but most all trap clubs run on current ATA rules and regulation for the game of American trap. So, its good to know ATA rules. Notice most all competitive/organized trap shooting will be designed around ATA program. So when you decide to join a trap league, derby, or jackpot for a day or several months you can bet ATA rules influence the program. ATA rules are the baseline.

Maltz

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 Post subject: Re: How is fps tested if it comes up at a ATA match?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:28 am 
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maltzahn wrote:
Last weekend (Sunday) Registered shoot at High Lakes.... Afton, IA.

New shooter and recent ATA member. Shooting handicap with new Remmy nitro's too hot for registered trap. Sporting clay loads marked on the box and cases. Another shooter noticed and complained to shoot management. All parties were present and the young new shooter had gone to Walmart buying cap ammo and didn't know the ATA rule. The complaint shooter understood and dropped the complaint. Shoot management took the young shooters name off the awards list for handicap only. Everyone left happy and no official complaint filed.

It can happen if the shooter fails to read rules and or does it on purpose.

Maltz


And yet what Randy just posted:

Any load with a velocity greater than 1290 FPS (Feet Per Second) with
a maximum shot charge of 1 1/8 ounces, or 1325 FPS with a maximum shot charge of 1 ounce, or 1350 FPS with a maximum shot charge of 7/8 ounces or less, as measured in any individual shotshell. These velocities are maximum and no individual shotshell shall exceed these limits for the designated shot charge.


seems to indicate those shells would be perfectly legal

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 Post subject: Re: How is fps tested if it comes up at a ATA match?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:46 am 
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Location: On the wrong side of the river, Austin TX
I tried out a friends Garmin Xero trap trainer and found out my black powder loads out of my 12 gauge muzzle loader were going about 1000 fps.
As prices come down, it may become possible for clubs to use technology like this to give out real time shot velocity as people are shooting, at least on the fields used for the championship rounds (shootoffs).

Unenforced or unenforceable rules may as well be no rules.

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 Post subject: Re: How is fps tested if it comes up at a ATA match?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2020 10:38 am 
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oneounceload wrote:
maltzahn wrote:
New shooter and recent ATA member. Shooting handicap with new Remmy nitro's too hot for registered trap. Sporting clay loads marked on the box and cases. Another shooter noticed and complained to shoot management. All parties were present and the young new shooter had gone to Walmart buying cap ammo and didn't know the ATA rule. The complaint shooter understood and dropped the complaint. Shoot management took the young shooters name off the awards list for handicap only. Everyone left happy and no official complaint filed.

It can happen if the shooter fails to read rules and or does it on purpose.

Maltz


And yet what Randy just posted:

Any load with a velocity greater than 1290 FPS (Feet Per Second) with
a maximum shot charge of 1 1/8 ounces, or 1325 FPS with a maximum shot charge of 1 ounce, or 1350 FPS with a maximum shot charge of 7/8 ounces or less, as measured in any individual shotshell. These velocities are maximum and no individual shotshell shall exceed these limits for the designated shot charge.


seems to indicate those shells would be perfectly legal


Several "sporting clays" 1-1/8 oz. loads are more than 1290 fps, printed right on the box.

Quote:
Remington Premier Nitro Gold Sporting Clays Target Loads Shotshells

The Remington® Premier® Nitro™ 27 shotshell has become commonplace on the nation's trap fields and sporting clays ranges due to its consistent velocities and pattern uniformity. Not to mention its unique gold hull that is known to be one of the most "reloader friendly" designs to hit the clay target shooting world. To meet the special demands of avid sporting clays shooters, Remington developed a new Premier Nitro Gold Sporting Clays target load. At 1300 FPS, the extra velocity gives you an added advantage for those long crossers, making target leads closer to normal for ultimate target-crushing satisfaction. Also makes a great high-velocity dove load.


It is a very easy, innocent mistake for a new shooter to make; hardly a nefarious act of any kind.

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 Post subject: Re: How is fps tested if it comes up at a ATA match?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2020 11:15 am 
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Maybe, but in formal competitions, all shooters, even new ones should put in the work to know the rules.


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 Post subject: Re: How is fps tested if it comes up at a ATA match?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2020 1:00 pm 
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"At 1300 FPS, the extra velocity gives you an added advantage for those long crossers, making target leads closer to normal for ultimate target-crushing satisfaction"

This is such marketing BS. LOL. Even at 40 yards that velocity has deteriorated to the point where I doubt that there would be 6 inches of lead difference between that shell and a 1145. I know in trap on the hard angles the difference between a 1145 and a 1290 is like 2 inches as I recall.

If you want to cheat at 16, load 1.5 ounces of 9s at about 950 and shoot a skeet choke, quickly.

At 27 shoot 1.5 ounces of plated 8s.

It is pattern density that breaks targets, not speed.


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 Post subject: Re: How is fps tested if it comes up at a ATA match?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2020 1:40 pm 
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Jim Tyner wrote:
I know in trap on the hard angles the difference between a 1145 and a 1290 is like 2 inches as I recall.



That's exactly why I don't waste gunpowder and needlessly punish my shoulder with high velocity loads.

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 Post subject: Re: How is fps tested if it comes up at a ATA match?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2020 2:57 pm 
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Rooster booster wrote:
Maybe, but in formal competitions, all shooters, even new ones should put in the work to know the rules.


Who knows if any rules were broken? Just because a box says 1300 fps doesn't mean that what is what you get. It wasn't tested.

The "complaint" directed towards the new shooter was about 10 fps printed on a box. That should excite no one.

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 Post subject: Re: How is fps tested if it comes up at a ATA match?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2020 3:05 pm 
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No complaint from anyone.......the OP asked about his possibly being questioned in the event someone complained. So far, we’re just doing what we do here.

Absolutely correct, ‘stated’ velocity is only a very rough guideline. My point to you was anyone entering a registered shoot needs to take responsibility beforehand, to know the rules regarding allowable equipment, including ammunition.




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