ShotGunWorld Shotguns

It is currently Sat Oct 31, 2020 9:07 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 46 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: How is fps tested if it comes up at a ATA match?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2020 5:23 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 9:17 pm
Posts: 2915
Location: Kansas, Land of Oz
Tal/IL wrote:
Quote:
Unless you are doing something really unusual, I see no reason for concern.

This ^.




Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: How is fps tested if it comes up at a ATA match?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2020 5:29 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 9:17 pm
Posts: 2915
Location: Kansas, Land of Oz
Jim Tyner wrote:
"At 1300 FPS, the extra velocity gives you an added advantage for those long crossers, making target leads closer to normal for ultimate target-crushing satisfaction"
This is such marketing BS. LOL. Even at 40 yards that velocity has deteriorated to the point where I doubt that there would be 6 inches of lead difference between that shell and a 1145. I know in trap on the hard angles the difference between a 1145 and a 1290 is like 2 inches as I recall.
If you want to cheat at 16, load 1.5 ounces of 9s at about 950 and shoot a skeet choke, quickly.
At 27 shoot 1.5 ounces of plated 8s.
It is pattern density that breaks targets, not speed.

True dat.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: How is fps tested if it comes up at a ATA match?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2020 10:10 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:35 pm
Posts: 83
Hey all, Sorry for the late reply. Thanks for all the great info!

Part of my concern was all these grumpy people I hear about. And when I looked through the ATA magazines I was given, while it is a very low percentage, there are a hand full of people each mag that look like they just as soon see the camera man dead... (mostly joking)

That said my range is NOTHING but nice people. And I have not had a bad encounter yet (crosses fingers)

So I gather that just loading this recipe from Hodgdon's is fine? (my bushing averages .3grs less)

Rem STS... Hodgdon Titewad Win. 209 CB-4100-12 20.9grs 8,500 PSI 1,350 fps

In this case I am using exact components.

That said, I have not even settled on a load yet, This just happens to be another test that also happens to be my first test at max fps with a trap load. So time to start confirming this type of stuff!

Tal/IL wrote:
As I said, I've never seen it happen. Unless you are doing something really unusual, I see no reason for concern.

Thanks for the info and reassurance!

RandyWakeman wrote:
It is in the rules.

Challenges are exceedingly rare and, as mentioned in the rules, harassment isn't tolerated. (Any such initiated challenges, determined to be abusive in nature, will be referred to the ATA Executive Committee for disciplinary action.)

Good! After all, "A. PURPOSE OF THE ATA The purpose of the ATA is to promote and govern the sport of amateur trapshooting throughout the world."

You aren't promoting anything by creating a 'walk of shame' environment for new shooters that make a simple mistake.

I did check the rules, it completely leaves it open to the judges it seems. I just wanted to clarify if there was a standard I could expect to need to adhere to. But you and the rest of the people make me feel like I am just getting anxious over nothing so that is good positive info I am hearing.

B.L.E. wrote:
I've always wondered about rule #4 and what conceivable advantage that would give a shooter. I go to several non-ATA trap shoots every year where black powder is required.

I tried out a friends Garmin Xero trap trainer and found out my black powder loads out of my 12 gauge muzzle loader were going about 1000 fps.
As prices come down, it may become possible for clubs to use technology like this to give out real time shot velocity as people are shooting, at least on the fields used for the championship rounds (shootoffs).

Unenforced or unenforceable rules may as well be no rules.

I would LOVE to shoot a black powder match! would mind the loading time a bit if it was breech load even lol! But I expect it would be simpler to use brass or just regular hulls as well o and only black powder. But absolutely something I will try in the future!

The scenario with the Garmin stuff is part of why I was asking, It would make factory ammo hard to use depending on gun and choke combo maybe? Or Factory ammo is excluded but reloads are judged by velocity from your gun? It is an interesting thing to think about with the addition of the tech you are talking about.

Thanks!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: How is fps tested if it comes up at a ATA match?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 11:55 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:08 am
Posts: 2312
Location: Central NH
kalabaddon wrote:
Hey all, Sorry for the late reply. Thanks for all the great info!

Part of my concern was all these grumpy people I hear about. And when I looked through the ATA magazines I was given, while it is a very low percentage, there are a hand full of people each mag that look like they just as soon see the camera man dead... (mostly joking)

That said my range is NOTHING but nice people. And I have not had a bad encounter yet (crosses fingers)

So I gather that just loading this recipe from Hodgdon's is fine? (my bushing averages .3grs less)

Rem STS... Hodgdon Titewad Win. 209 CB-4100-12 20.9grs 8,500 PSI 1,350 fps

In this case I am using exact components.

That said, I have not even settled on a load yet, This just happens to be another test that also happens to be my first test at max fps with a trap load. So time to start confirming this type of stuff!


Thanks!

I just looked at the Hodgdon data online, and the heaviest charge they list for Titewad with your choice of components is 19.6 gr. The listed velocity is 1290.

The heaviest charge of Titewad with any primer, or wad, is 20.2.

Where did you get that data?

Edited for a typo


Last edited by painter* on Sun Jul 19, 2020 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: How is fps tested if it comes up at a ATA match?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 12:13 pm 
Shotgun Expert
Shotgun Expert
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:02 am
Posts: 26650
Location: Plainfield, IL
kalabaddon wrote:

So I gather that just loading this recipe from Hodgdon's is fine? (my bushing averages .3grs less)

Rem STS... Hodgdon Titewad Win. 209 CB-4100-12 20.9grs 8,500 PSI 1,350 fps

In this case I am using exact components.


19.6 gr. is the limit for your components according to the Hodgdon site: 1290 fps.

_________________
--Randy

http://randywakeman.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: How is fps tested if it comes up at a ATA match?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 12:47 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue May 19, 2009 6:57 pm
Posts: 2675
If it is printed on the box as the stated velocity and if it is above the STATED ATA Rule, then it is breaking the Rule.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: How is fps tested if it comes up at a ATA match?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 12:51 pm 
Shotgun Expert
Shotgun Expert
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:02 am
Posts: 26650
Location: Plainfield, IL
Jim Tyner wrote:
If it is printed on the box as the stated velocity and if it is above the STATED ATA Rule, then it is breaking the Rule.


No, the rules don't say that at all. Factory boxes don't mean much and in the case of reloads, they mean nothing.

_________________
--Randy

http://randywakeman.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: How is fps tested if it comes up at a ATA match?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 3:27 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:35 pm
Posts: 83
painter* wrote:
I just looked at the Hodgdon data online, and the heaviest charge they list for Titewad with your choice of components is 19.6 gr. The listed velocity is 1290.

The heaviest charge of Titewad with any primer, or wad, is 20.2.

Where did you get that data?



RandyWakeman wrote:
19.6 gr. is the limit for your components according to the Hodgdon site: 1290 fps.


Sorry I was not clear, I forgot to say the shot weight. It is for a 7/8th oz load. The one ounce does top out at 1290, but the 7/8 go up to 1400. This was just an example btw. I am shooting this exact load right now just trying it out, But I am unsure if that is the load I would take to a competition since I am still learning and trying different loads for effectiveness and cost savings.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: How is fps tested if it comes up at a ATA match?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:43 am 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*

Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 2:32 pm
Posts: 6974
Location: Creston, Iowa
Wait a minute ..... the ATA rule does have stated limits and ATA officials do believe the ammo manufactures printed performance. There are complaints on file based on this simple observation.

Maltz

_________________
Have gun, will travel


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: How is fps tested if it comes up at a ATA match?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 12:49 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue May 19, 2009 6:57 pm
Posts: 2675
Sorry Randy, don't be disingenuous. You know that factory ammo is tested to SAAMI standards and any shoot official who knows the rules would DQ anyone with factory ammo over the maximums.

I see no problem if a guy is using a factory box for his reloads except that if he is showing up to an ATA shoot with his reloads in over the limit boxes he is pretty much a fool for appearances sake.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: How is fps tested if it comes up at a ATA match?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 4:54 pm 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2005 3:20 pm
Posts: 4413
Location: somewhere east of the I-95 corridor, until you get to connecticut. but you can bank on vanzant, mo..
I brought this up a longtime ago and got mixed answers... but didn't the grand require certain events to be issued only factory ammo sold at the grand to avoid all this confusion at one time in history?

_________________
Retired Military Aviation
Former NSSA All American
Former Member Navy Shooting Team
NRA Shotgun Instructor
Range Owner:
http://www.vanzantclaypigeonfarm.webs.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: How is fps tested if it comes up at a ATA match?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 6:14 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun May 17, 2015 6:25 pm
Posts: 2672
Location: On the wrong side of the river, Austin TX
bobski wrote:
I brought this up a longtime ago and got mixed answers... but didn't the grand require certain events to be issued only factory ammo sold at the grand to avoid all this confusion at one time in history?


From the 2019 ATA Grand American shoot program.

"AMMUNITION: New shells are mandatory for all Handicap events and Handicap shootoffs. Shooters will be able to bring their own shells (including reloads for Single and Double events) or may buy shells through Gamaliel Shooting Supply at the shell house at retail pricing. The shell house closes at 6 P.M., so make sure that you get your shootoff shells before 6 P.M. Violations of the shell standards as listed in the ATA rule book will be dealt with aggressively including possible long suspensions."

My understanding is that handicap is the big purse event with lots of sponsor money. It looks to me that you don't have to buy the shells for that event from the event's shell house but they have to be (legal) factory loads.

_________________
I finally figured out that lifting your head and not following through can ruin your score in a rifle match also.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: How is fps tested if it comes up at a ATA match?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 7:26 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 6:09 pm
Posts: 957
bobski wrote:
I brought this up a longtime ago and got mixed answers... but didn't the grand require certain events to be issued only factory ammo sold at the grand to avoid all this confusion at one time in history?


Yes , shell were included in the event entry fee .


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: How is fps tested if it comes up at a ATA match?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:39 pm 
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2003 9:14 pm
Posts: 2370
Location: 35 miles from Normal, Illinois (as close to normal as I'll ever be)
Prior to the move to Sparta, your were required to shoot factory loads from the ATA shell house in all Grand American events. Your Grand American entry fee for each event included the price of shells. For each 100 target event, you received a voucher for 4 boxes of shells that you exchanged for shells at the ATA shell house. After the move to Sparta, reloads were allowed for all events. I believe it was 2010 that they brought back the factory load requirement for handicap events only. You can purchase them from the on-site shell house, or bring your own.

_________________
"The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well meaning but without understanding." - Justice Louis D. Brandeis (1856-1941)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: How is fps tested if it comes up at a ATA match?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2020 5:28 am 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2005 3:20 pm
Posts: 4413
Location: somewhere east of the I-95 corridor, until you get to connecticut. but you can bank on vanzant, mo..
bingo.
if only they did it again like tal' said, no more issues.
thanks.

btw, last time I checked, some matches at camp perry are still that way for EIC events.

_________________
Retired Military Aviation
Former NSSA All American
Former Member Navy Shooting Team
NRA Shotgun Instructor
Range Owner:
http://www.vanzantclaypigeonfarm.webs.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: How is fps tested if it comes up at a ATA match?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2020 5:31 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun May 17, 2015 6:25 pm
Posts: 2672
Location: On the wrong side of the river, Austin TX
Tal/IL wrote:
Prior to the move to Sparta, your were required to shoot factory loads from the ATA shell house in all Grand American events. Your Grand American entry fee for each event included the price of shells. For each 100 target event, you received a voucher for 4 boxes of shells that you exchanged for shells at the ATA shell house. After the move to Sparta, reloads were allowed for all events. I believe it was 2010 that they brought back the factory load requirement for handicap events only. You can purchase them from the on-site shell house, or bring your own.


Did they provide a couple of extra shells for no-bird shoot overs? I always have a couple of extra shells in my shell holder for things like that.

_________________
I finally figured out that lifting your head and not following through can ruin your score in a rifle match also.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: How is fps tested if it comes up at a ATA match?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2020 5:35 am 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2005 3:20 pm
Posts: 4413
Location: somewhere east of the I-95 corridor, until you get to connecticut. but you can bank on vanzant, mo..
if I remember correctly, the scorers had them at their chairs.

_________________
Retired Military Aviation
Former NSSA All American
Former Member Navy Shooting Team
NRA Shotgun Instructor
Range Owner:
http://www.vanzantclaypigeonfarm.webs.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: How is fps tested if it comes up at a ATA match?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2020 12:52 pm 
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2003 9:14 pm
Posts: 2370
Location: 35 miles from Normal, Illinois (as close to normal as I'll ever be)
Quote:
Did they provide a couple of extra shells for no-bird shoot overs? I always have a couple of extra shells in my shell holder for things like that.


Not that I recall. But you could buy additional shells at the shell house.

_________________
"The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well meaning but without understanding." - Justice Louis D. Brandeis (1856-1941)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: How is fps tested if it comes up at a ATA match?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 11:09 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:35 pm
Posts: 83
So related update. not about anyone complaining but just something interesting.

I tested my loads on a chrono and also tested some of my friends and some stock ammo as well.

Only my friends loads where near expected data shot out of his Browning CTX. All the loads shot out of my Mossberg 500 as well as most of the loads shot out of my 1100 with a 22 in slug barrel was a minimum of 500 fps over written data on the factory box or my load data. And in some cases 1000-1500fps over. The really hot load was a factory super sport AA not legal for trap but the box said 3000 and i was getting 4400-4500.

This box of ammo also kicks like a dang magnum so it could be an odd factory box.

The 1100 had a open choke and my mossberg was a full iirc.

I am planning on doing some more testing; Not because of my original question on the thread, you all alleviated my fears, but just because I am curious now, I just thought it was interesting how much a difference there was.

edit: This is all off memory, my chrono decided not to record my results cause my phone didnt connect right. But Me and 2 other people where kinda floored by how much a difference it was compared to what we expected. When i test more I will make sure the app is recording.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: How is fps tested if it comes up at a ATA match?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 6:56 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 6:28 pm
Posts: 1059
Location: Skeet and Trap Fields
George Z wrote:
All the loads shot out of my Mossberg 500 as well as most of the loads shot out of my 1100 with a 22 in slug barrel was a minimum of 500 fps over written data on the factory box or my load data. And in some cases 1000-1500fps over. The really hot load was a factory super sport AA not legal for trap but the box said 3000 and i was getting 4400-4500.


"Whatcha talkin' about Willis?" 1000 fps over wha? 4400 fps out of a wha? Normally I would assume this is a typo but there are too many of them. Is this a poor attempt at a joke? Anyone making sense out of this or is it just not worth the effort?




Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 46 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Registered users: Basstar, bearman49709, Bill M., Bing [Bot], Bladeswitcher, brnzbk, bullseye-69, casonet, ChiTime, clays99, CMT1, Cooper4141, Curly N, Diddle, DKW1, Drew Hause, Ed Usinowicz, EricB, Fishingrod, Fluke, Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot], Google Feedfetcher, Hal4son, hardcast, HusqvarnaSweden, icyclefar, ithaca49, ithacanut, JacksBack, justice12, Keperkey, kyskeet, LeverHead, Mainely October, Majestic-12 [Bot], Mark Pfeifer, MRIDOC1, msmith, OBH Gun Club, Oldandrusty, oneounceload, painter*, pops78, potatodigger1, rbdjr, RemPremier, rgonzo, Scardog7, Skeet_Man, Skoda10, SuperXOne, SWPAMike, T-Pee, Tailchaser, Tidefanatic, TimNichols, Tom Bryant, trdjohn, Wilfred1955, Winston Wolf, Woods Wanderer, Yellow Lab, zoro686


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group    - DMCA Notice