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 Post subject: Handicap rounds: 1 1/8oz at 1250 or 1oz at 1325?
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2021 3:12 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Tue May 12, 2020 10:17 am
Posts: 200
So as of this weekend, I can reload. I can make whatever I want rather than be satisfied with whatever I can find in the store which is currently nothing. Now, I am like a kid in candy store but I need to research what load I should really be making.

I have a bunch of questions and have done some searching and reading. One of my questions is in the subject line. What is better for Handicap and why? More mass at lower velocity or less mass at higher velocity?

My understanding is that at 1 1/8oz, I can actually go up to 1290 but I don't see a lot of loads at that velocity with what I have on hand. I have WST, WSH, and some Competition in transit.

I am current making 1150fps rounds at 1 1/8. I see loads for up to about 1200fps with WST. My plan is to use WSH for 1250fps at 1/18 rounds for handicap. I don't see loads for 1 1/8 at 1290fps with WSH.

But I have 1oz wads also so I could be making higher speed 1 oz loads. Just want to understand the rational.

Another one of my questions: is there any downside to using a faster, Handicap load from 16 yards?




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 Post subject: Re: Handicap rounds: 1 1/8oz at 1250 or 1oz at 1325?
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2021 4:51 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:40 pm
Posts: 15
What distance do you shoot Handicap from?


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 Post subject: Re: Handicap rounds: 1 1/8oz at 1250 or 1oz at 1325?
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2021 4:56 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:50 pm
Posts: 2876
Location: SE Ohio...where ruffed grouse were
2 3/4 dram 1 1/8 or 3 dram....suit yourself.

Yardage?

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I despise a dog killer...most especially a sanctimonious, selfish and self-focused one.

Lest we forget...Faron Young and....all....the rest.


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 Post subject: Re: Handicap rounds: 1 1/8oz at 1250 or 1oz at 1325?
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2021 5:12 pm 
Crown Grade
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Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 5:55 pm
Posts: 2161
Location: Indiana
1 oz of 7 1/2s at 1250-1290 will work all the way back to the 27.


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 Post subject: Re: Handicap rounds: 1 1/8oz at 1250 or 1oz at 1325?
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2021 5:36 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Tue May 12, 2020 10:17 am
Posts: 200
I am think about 27 yards. I know lots of things "will" work but I am trying to understand the pro and cons of mass verses velocity. I mean there must be a reason why the Trap rules have different velocity limits for different masses. I imagine the idea is to keep energy more or less constant but doing some quick numbers, 1 1/8 oz at 1290 is 7% more energy than 1 oz at 1325.


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 Post subject: Re: Handicap rounds: 1 1/8oz at 1250 or 1oz at 1325?
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2021 5:43 pm 
Crown Grade
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Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:20 pm
Posts: 23892
1oz @ 1250 will break any target you will see on any clay target course.

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Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience, George Carlin


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 Post subject: Re: Handicap rounds: 1 1/8oz at 1250 or 1oz at 1325?
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2021 7:09 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:50 pm
Posts: 2876
Location: SE Ohio...where ruffed grouse were
2 3/4 dram(1150ish) 1 1/8-7 1/2, full choke plus time on station...or, 3 dram @ the 27....unless you have faith in another load, of course. {hs#

Why or Which.....seems a poor question at this juncture.
jmho

Have fun.

_________________
I despise a dog killer...most especially a sanctimonious, selfish and self-focused one.

Lest we forget...Faron Young and....all....the rest.


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 Post subject: Re: Handicap rounds: 1 1/8oz at 1250 or 1oz at 1325?
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2021 5:43 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:32 am
Posts: 105
Location: New Hampshire, United States of America
How did each load perform in your gun and choke combo on the pattern board when you tested them? The answer to your question will only come from pattern testing. Once you know what patterns best it's up to you to put the pattern on the target as the speed difference is not material to time to target nor breaking the target. One ounce loads often pattern tighter at 40 yards than 1 1/8 ounce. You also did not mention shot size, 7.5's will have a greater retained velocity than smaller shot as distance increases. If I remember correctly a 7.5 pellet has 40% more energy at 40 yards than a #8 when launched at the same muzzle velocity. PS. High velocity max payload is just the ticket for developing a flinch.


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 Post subject: Re: Handicap rounds: 1 1/8oz at 1250 or 1oz at 1325?
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2021 12:49 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue May 19, 2009 6:57 pm
Posts: 2703
Let's do some unpacking and peel off personal; preferences.

1. The late Neil Winston did more pattern testing using scientific methodology than anyone. Google his work; it's out there to find. It will clear up a lot of things for you.

2. Loads do pattern differently in different shotguns. You have to pattern the load you want to use.

3. Speed kills. Too much speed can blow up a pattern and the lead difference and energy delivered difference between 1150 and 1250 is minuscule at target breaking distances.

4. Trust the math. The more pellets that are out there, the better chance one or more will hit the target. This is true for both the center of the pattern and the periphery.

5. One pellet can break a target. Sometimes up to 5 can't. There nothing you can do about this EXCEPT, center every target in the pattern. That is where the pattern is most dense and increases your odds of a break.

6. The tighter the choke, the more pellets stay in the center of the pattern. The pattern doesn't get smaller, the center just gets more dense.

7. At 27 yards, the single most important factor in a good center-dense pattern is hard shot. If you are not using high antimony shot you are one step behind from the get go.

8. Just about anything works back to 23 yards. After that, ammo can make a small difference.

9. To develop your full potential as a shooter it is not what you put down the barrel, it's how much. There is no substitute in ammo or equipment for being able to center the target. Good equipment can help you do that more consistently, good ammo can you the best odds of a break when it get there but if you can't put the center of the pattern on the target, it really doesn't matter what your shooting.


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 Post subject: Re: Handicap rounds: 1 1/8oz at 1250 or 1oz at 1325?
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2021 1:19 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:49 pm
Posts: 22
Jim Tyner wrote:
Let's do some unpacking and peel off personal; preferences.


4. Trust the math. The more pellets that are out there, the better chance one or more will hit the target. This is true for both the center of the pattern and the periphery.

.



So, I'm guessing you do believe in 1 1/8 oz over 1 oz?


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 Post subject: Re: Handicap rounds: 1 1/8oz at 1250 or 1oz at 1325?
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2021 3:37 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:04 pm
Posts: 887
Location: Eastern Ohio
I shoot an ounce of 8’s 1200 FPS at 16 yard and 1 1/8 of 7.5’at 1200 at 27. Works well for
Me.

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Age just makes one old. Only the wise benefit from experience.
The definition of insanity, doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Albert Einstein
There is nothing common about good sense.


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 Post subject: Re: Handicap rounds: 1 1/8oz at 1250 or 1oz at 1325?
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2021 3:43 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Tue May 12, 2020 10:17 am
Posts: 200
Jim Tyner wrote:
Let's do some unpacking and peel off personal; preferences.

1. The late Neil Winston did more pattern testing using scientific methodology than anyone. Google his work; it's out there to find. It will clear up a lot of things for you.

2. Loads do pattern differently in different shotguns. You have to pattern the load you want to use.

3. Speed kills. Too much speed can blow up a pattern and the lead difference and energy delivered difference between 1150 and 1250 is minuscule at target breaking distances.

4. Trust the math. The more pellets that are out there, the better chance one or more will hit the target. This is true for both the center of the pattern and the periphery.

5. One pellet can break a target. Sometimes up to 5 can't. There nothing you can do about this EXCEPT, center every target in the pattern. That is where the pattern is most dense and increases your odds of a break.

6. The tighter the choke, the more pellets stay in the center of the pattern. The pattern doesn't get smaller, the center just gets more dense.

7. At 27 yards, the single most important factor in a good center-dense pattern is hard shot. If you are not using high antimony shot you are one step behind from the get go.

8. Just about anything works back to 23 yards. After that, ammo can make a small difference.

9. To develop your full potential as a shooter it is not what you put down the barrel, it's how much. There is no substitute in ammo or equipment for being able to center the target. Good equipment can help you do that more consistently, good ammo can you the best odds of a break when it get there but if you can't put the center of the pattern on the target, it really doesn't matter what your shooting.


This is great. Thank you. I will look up Neil Winston for sure. I have both Lawrence and West Coast Magnum 7.5 shot.


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 Post subject: Re: Handicap rounds: 1 1/8oz at 1250 or 1oz at 1325?
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2021 3:59 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue May 19, 2009 6:57 pm
Posts: 2703
As Leo Harrison, the greatest trap shooter that ever lived, replied when asked why he shot 1 1/8th, "Because they won't let me shoot more."

Can you break targets with 1 ounce? Absolutely. You can break them with a .22. The key is to be centered.

However, well centered 1 1/8 patterns from the 27 will not always break a target because pattern density just isn't consistent, even in the center. It's just math to use 1 1/8 at that yardage.


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 Post subject: Re: Handicap rounds: 1 1/8oz at 1250 or 1oz at 1325?
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2021 4:19 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:50 pm
Posts: 2876
Location: SE Ohio...where ruffed grouse were
Big Leo or Little Nora..... {hs#

_________________
I despise a dog killer...most especially a sanctimonious, selfish and self-focused one.

Lest we forget...Faron Young and....all....the rest.


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 Post subject: Re: Handicap rounds: 1 1/8oz at 1250 or 1oz at 1325?
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2021 4:41 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Tue May 12, 2020 10:17 am
Posts: 200
Jim Tyner wrote:
As Leo Harrison, the greatest trap shooter that ever lived, replied when asked why he shot 1 1/8th, "Because they won't let me shoot more."


OK so lets focus on 1 1/8. I am happy with that. That still leaves open the discussion for velocity. 1150, 1200, 1250, or even 1290 (max allowed). I have read both in this thread and elsewhere that high speeds can distort the pattern. Ultimately I will do my own tests and compare at least 1150, 1200, and 1250. I have not seen many loads for 1290 and not really sure what powder to use for that if I could even get it. I am have WST and WSH right now. WSH can do 1250 with components I have. I have a bunch of Competition coming but that is faster burning than even WST so not much use for high speed at 1 1/8.


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 Post subject: Re: Handicap rounds: 1 1/8oz at 1250 or 1oz at 1325?
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2021 4:43 pm 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 5:55 pm
Posts: 2161
Location: Indiana
JMO, but you may be overthinking this...


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 Post subject: Re: Handicap rounds: 1 1/8oz at 1250 or 1oz at 1325?
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2021 4:47 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:50 pm
Posts: 2876
Location: SE Ohio...where ruffed grouse were
winmod21 wrote:
JMO, but you may be overthinking this...


Which indicates, speaking personally, he may be a cinch for Registered Trap. :D

_________________
I despise a dog killer...most especially a sanctimonious, selfish and self-focused one.

Lest we forget...Faron Young and....all....the rest.


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 Post subject: Re: Handicap rounds: 1 1/8oz at 1250 or 1oz at 1325?
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2021 5:00 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:04 pm
Posts: 282
Location: Denver, CO
What type of shotgun and how do you handle recoil? Load some 1 oz #8 and 1 oz #7.5 at say 1200 fps, then some 1-1/8 #7.5 at 1150 and 1200 fps and see how you like them. See what works best for you and how they feel on your shoulder.

Some folks like to keep their speeds consistent, others like faster ones for distance.


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 Post subject: Re: Handicap rounds: 1 1/8oz at 1250 or 1oz at 1325?
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2021 5:07 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Tue May 12, 2020 10:17 am
Posts: 200
winmod21 wrote:
JMO, but you may be overthinking this...


You might say I overthink everything but in my world there is no such thing as "overthinking". I enjoy doing research and understanding.

Not sure i understand the comment about "registered trap" though in the next comment.

I am shooting a 725 Trap Max. Not too worried about recoil. If I don't like the faster loads, I can always back down.

I will just make some 1200 and 1250 and pattern them with a full choke and see if the pattern distorts.


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 Post subject: Re: Handicap rounds: 1 1/8oz at 1250 or 1oz at 1325?
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2021 5:22 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:50 pm
Posts: 2876
Location: SE Ohio...where ruffed grouse were
rhodesengr wrote:
...Not sure i understand the comment about "registered trap" though in the next comment....


Sorry...Registered Trap being targets shot in competition and, essentially, being registered with the ATA....so earning moves back(and frontward :wink: ) in Handicap, etc. competitions.
I assume you know this tho.
As a lapsed Registered shooter of many years, I often overthought the smallest of details in early days...and so, noticed a kindred spirit, of sorts.

Eventually, I realized that much fiddling with loads, any try to put "just a few more pellets in that important 5" annular ring" or whatever fiddly bit was effort in a poor direction....comparably.

Regardless, enjoy the journey.



_________________
I despise a dog killer...most especially a sanctimonious, selfish and self-focused one.

Lest we forget...Faron Young and....all....the rest.


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