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 Post subject: holding head at an angle when mounting gun?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2021 4:31 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:35 pm
Posts: 113
Hello all.

I find that I can shoot more naturally feeling when I have my head at a slight angle tilted towards the gun. I am right handed and right eye dominate ( close to both eye dominate ) I will feel more naturally when my head is tilted such that my left eye is higher then my right.

Looking in to it I have heard that having your eyes parallel and head straight up is the recommended way?

What are your thoughts on this? My plan if I am graced with the appropriate skill is to be competitive at trap and not just shoot for fun. Right now I tried both and having my head tilted is much easier for me to shoot, This could be simply a factor of gun fit, but just wanted to know more about it.

Thanks for any help!




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 Post subject: Re: holding head at an angle when mounting gun?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2021 4:48 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2016 11:45 am
Posts: 2305
Do you have an any adjustments available on the stock ?

Others more knowledgeable than I can explain it better but I have found I have a “pocket” where the butt fits into most naturally. The adjustable butt pad can then align the cheek/stock/pocket.

Or something like that.


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 Post subject: Re: holding head at an angle when mounting gun?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2021 4:53 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:40 pm
Posts: 146
Is it more natural because you are used to doing it? For everything else we do in life, one's head is level. I don't really expect for shooting a shotgun any different.


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 Post subject: Re: holding head at an angle when mounting gun?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2021 5:13 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 9:17 pm
Posts: 2967
Location: Kansas, Land of Oz
Unless you have a stock that is extremely customized, you have to tilt your head to some extent in order to get your right eye in line with the barrel/rib. (your eye is not above the side of your face)
Most ideal would be to have your head normally upright. Unfortunately, most of us have guns that will not allow it.


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 Post subject: Re: holding head at an angle when mounting gun?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2021 9:45 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:43 am
Posts: 797
With a properly fit gun , bringing the gun up to your cheek first , then pulling it back into
your shoulder pocket would be a way of correcting , tilting your head ? Once you have mastered
this technique , it will benefit you shooting targets in the wind or dropping !
If your have to tilt your head to get a sight-picture down the rib , your gun doesn't fit you !


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 Post subject: Re: holding head at an angle when mounting gun?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2021 10:34 am 
*Proud to be a*
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Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 2:32 pm
Posts: 7048
Location: Creston, Iowa
Yup....."gun fit" and easy to fix. Fix you first...... Bring the gun/stock to your eye. Stand in your shooting position and bring the stock straight up to your dominant eye. No contortions, just straight up to the eye and lock it there.

If the gun doesn't allow for a clean mount it will be in the stock configuration and settings. If your mounting to the shoulder and bring your head down to the stock, sorry about your scores and skill level.

A cockeyed mount with the off eye higher than the dominant eye risks the wrong eye taking over the point. If the off eye sees the target better or more clear than the eye looking down the rib an off eye take over may be the reason some of your lost targets are a complete mystery.

Work at keeping your eyes level during the shot.

Maltz

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 Post subject: Re: holding head at an angle when mounting gun?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2021 10:20 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:59 pm
Posts: 1476
Location: Soda Springs, Id.
I'm more surprised your not complaining about getting chopped in the face if your holding your head like that.

if you have an adjustable comb slide the front of it over about 1/4" and give that a try.


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 Post subject: Re: holding head at an angle when mounting gun?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 7:47 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 1:56 pm
Posts: 1528
tilting the head to the right for a right handed shooter is quite common. The main reason it is done, is because the stock does not let the shooter put his face further to the right, so he rolls his head slightly over the stock and then his eye is lined up. Most shooters doing this don't even know that is why they are doing it, they just started doing it the first time they ever shot a gun, in order to get the eye lined up, and really never gave it any thought. Pretty soon, like almost instantly it feels natural to them, but it ain't really, they just adapted to it.

It is best that you use a thinner stock so that your face can come further to the right, but this probably entails changing your stock around a lot, so quite likely you will just keep living with the condition, like about a million other shooters doing it. You may even need some cast-off to get lined up but with a little luck you just need a thinner comb. Usually the thinner comb will do it, because your face is slimmer as it drops away below the cheek bone and that slimmer area can withstand the thick part of the stock, but some guys have a pretty wide face even below the cheek bone.

You are better off if you can keep the head not tilted, especially if you have astigmatism. Astigmatism is a condition that is really aggravated as you tilt your head side to side.

Fiver nailed it for you, if you have a comb that you can adjust.


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 Post subject: Re: holding head at an angle when mounting gun?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:16 am 
*Proud to be a*
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Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 2:32 pm
Posts: 7048
Location: Creston, Iowa
Chubby cheek shooters tend to like roll over combs for this same reason. Instead of setting the comb(standard) under the cheekbone to fix the mount. Other shooters just want to lay their face on the comb. Many of expensive custom stocks come with roll over and twisted recoil pad. Toe out to the right for righthanders, left for lefties. Also helps keep recoil away from the chest muscles and helps fix kicking up into the face.

Pad straight up and down, a too long LOP, head rolled over the stock makes for a lot of kick in the face. At minimum a pad adjuster helps, proper cast helps more. With the goal of the gun recoiling straight back of the bore, into the guns mass and your shoulder. Not your face.

The real reason for poor gun fit is the gun manufactures use a standard configuration for an average sized person. If your not 5'8 to10" high, about 185#s, you will not be able to go to a dealer and find or try guns that fit. Or fit best as shooters advise unaware buyers when looking for a gun. The real advise is buy a gun and make it fit. You will easily spend 500 bucks or more to get a close or what I call a field gun fit.

So..... you budget 2 grand for the used trap gun and 500 for the stock smithy to get an acceptable gun fit. It will be a great benefit for you to also study gun fitting and become somewhat aware of the subject. Lastly.... don't be afraid to cut the beautiful stock.

Maltz

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 Post subject: Re: holding head at an angle when mounting gun?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2021 3:59 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:58 pm
Posts: 181
One thing I've noticed is that trap is quite a bit different than sporting, fitasc, and field shooting. In all the literature I've read on shooting it's often stated to bring the gun to your cheek and then pull the shoulder forward slightly to lock the butt into it's proper place. But most all good trap shooters don't do this. They mount the gun in the shoulder and against the face, then lean forward and really press their face/cheek into the gun even more until they find their place, then call for the bird. This being said their eyes are mostly level and head is straight as far as the X axis is concerned. They do often have their heads very far forward and necks often seemed stretched far forward too. If my explanation is lacking, just look up a video of any ISSF trap shooting event.


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 Post subject: Re: holding head at an angle when mounting gun?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:58 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:43 am
Posts: 797
Life of Riley wrote:
One thing I've noticed is that trap is quite a bit different than sporting, fitasc, and field shooting. In all the literature I've read on shooting it's often stated to bring the gun to your cheek and then pull the shoulder forward slightly to lock the butt into it's proper place. But most all good trap shooters don't do this. They mount the gun in the shoulder and against the face, then lean forward and really press their face/cheek into the gun even more until they find their place, then call for the bird. This being said their eyes are mostly level and head is straight as far as the X axis is concerned. They do often have their heads very far forward and necks often seemed stretched far forward too. If my explanation is lacking, just look up a video of any ISSF trap shooting event.


Well you're partially right if you're a ISSF shooter , those who shoot the American games
Trap ,Skeet ,sporting ( all 3 games) and ZZ birds have had better luck with a more
conventional Mount ! I believe the reason is to keep your eyes Level so your peripheral
vision can pickup the Rise and Flight angle quicker as you'll be looking out " The true
Focal Point " of your Glasses , not just the upper Third ! Why else does your Eye Glss
Technician measure that focal point , from the bottom of you lenses but this goes true
with Store bought or Shooting Glasses ? Right ? Correct me if I'm wrong ?


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 Post subject: Re: holding head at an angle when mounting gun?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:19 am 
*Proud to be a*
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Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 2:32 pm
Posts: 7048
Location: Creston, Iowa
Eye pokers measure pupil distance from the center of the nose. Optical labs cut the Rx and center each optic on the clients pupil distance(PD) laterally centered while looking straight out of the lenses naturally. The center of the optic is the only place the user sees clearly. as the user looks to the side of the optic we loose clarity. You can prove that by taking your glasses and moving them around on your face.

It is the shooting frame that raises the lenses and PD up to be able to see clearly while mounted on a stock and trying to point a targets. Only point to remember is getting the correction optics centered on your vision in position.

BTW...... Plano is a Rx. If you do not need any correction because you see clearly. The shooting frame needs to have lenses for plano. They must be cut to see your best. There are low cost shooter frames that have compression formed polycarbonate lenses just not as clear. More important is curvature is a prism. so.....the human face has 4 to 5 base curvature and you buy those really cool wraps 8 to 10 base and look through a correction not prescribed based on lease curvature.

It is rocket science......Maltz

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 Post subject: Re: holding head at an angle when mounting gun?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:09 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:35 pm
Posts: 113
Thanks for all the good information all. Guess I will need to get some adjustments done down the road then.


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 Post subject: Re: holding head at an angle when mounting gun?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:28 pm 
*Proud to be a*
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Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2003 4:23 pm
Posts: 5615
Location: Brillion, WI-25 mls S of Green Bay
George,

I suspect that plump cheeks may well be the reason that you lean your head toward the stock.

If you mount the gun without twisting the gun or leaning your head toward the stock, where is your eye relative to the rib? Is it to the left as I suspect? If it is just a little, you may be able to have your stock bent to the right to correct the problem.

As an aside, do you "hang" your cheekbone on the comb of the stock as is often recommended?

Would you say that you have plump cheeks?

_________________
Rollin

Author of "Stock Fitter's Bible, Second Edition," which explains the interrelationships between shooting form, stock dimensions and a shooter's size and shape http://www.amazon.com/Stock-Fitters-Bible-Second-Edition/dp/1451570384


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 Post subject: Re: holding head at an angle when mounting gun?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2021 1:52 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue May 19, 2009 6:57 pm
Posts: 2693
Rollin Oswald wrote:
As an aside, do you "hang" your cheekbone on the comb of the stock as is often recommended?


One should try mounting the gun with their mouth open to get a more consistent mount and less gun movement during the call for the target.


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 Post subject: Re: holding head at an angle when mounting gun?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2021 12:13 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 9:17 pm
Posts: 2967
Location: Kansas, Land of Oz
Jim Tyner wrote:
One should try mounting the gun with their mouth open to get a more consistent mount and less gun movement during the call for the target.

That ^ is good advice, and the reason I quit calling for the bird with the word "pull" years ago.
Saying "pull" requires jaw and lip movement, which momentary affects eye/rib alignment.
I've gone to saying "HUT", which requires a slight movement of only the tongue, and keeps the mouth open from mount until the break.
Works for me.


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 Post subject: Re: holding head at an angle when mounting gun?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:53 am 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2005 3:20 pm
Posts: 4616
Location: somewhere east of the I-95 corridor, until you get to connecticut. but you can bank on vanzant, mo..
any rifleman will tell you that doing that will change point of impact.
its a bad practice and it should be corrected.

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 Post subject: Re: holding head at an angle when mounting gun?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:53 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 11:25 pm
Posts: 2421
Location: Attica, Mi
Good thing we're not shooting rifles where that 1" POI makes a difference. Some of you guys are giving me a good chuckle about how to call for a bird or if my mouth is open or closed. I usually worry if I have to fart before I pull the trigger.

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 Post subject: Re: holding head at an angle when mounting gun?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 3:30 pm 
*Proud to be a*
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Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 2:32 pm
Posts: 7048
Location: Creston, Iowa
Its kind of funny talking lips and jaw while on the stock, but it does have some merit when it comes to small change to POI. Instead of pull, try hull or ya.

When it comes to voice release systems, they like the word "pull". Especially the wireless models. Some voices and calls struggle getting consistent target releases. Soft calls, and some high pitch calls do not register well with the mics.

Maltz

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Have gun, will travel


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 Post subject: Re: holding head at an angle when mounting gun?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 10:24 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:59 pm
Posts: 1476
Location: Soda Springs, Id.
yes, I switched to 'throw' from 'pull' when the voice releases started being more popular.
I noticed it changed where my jaw was in relationship to the stock and it helped my eyes stay more consistent.




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