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 Post subject: Re: It does not seem like a fair rule
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2021 9:16 am 
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Don't like the rules, don't shoot trap, don't matter.

Do shoot trap, do learn the rules, because it does matter. In trap shooting there is the ATA (Amateur Trapshooting Assn). They govern all registered shooting and most gun clubs adopt the ATA time proven rules for non registered shooting out of convenience compared to writing their own rules. So....it is said that the ATA governs all trapshooting.

American trap is the biggest shooting discipline nationwide. More shoot trap than all of sporting, skeet, 5stand and the European games combined. Has available more fields, more participation, more locations, more events than all the other shooting sports. Has 130+ years of history.

Maltz



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 Post subject: Re: It does not seem like a fair rule
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:18 am 
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maltzahn wrote:
Don't like the rules, don't shoot trap, don't matter.

Do shoot trap, do learn the rules, because it does matter. In trap shooting there is the ATA (Amateur Trapshooting Assn). They govern all registered shooting and most gun clubs adopt the ATA time proven rules for non registered shooting out of convenience compared to writing their own rules. So....it is said that the ATA governs all trapshooting.

American trap is the biggest shooting discipline nationwide. More shoot trap than all of sporting, skeet, 5stand and the European games combined. Has available more fields, more participation, more locations, more events than all the other shooting sports. Has 130+ years of history.

Maltz


I DON'T shoot trap. That's partly because I find the game boring, and partly because of the attitudes like yours.

I think that the reason there are so many trap shooters is not because shooters find the game so interesting or so much fun. It's because it's the cheapest form of shotgun shooting available. It takes only one target throwing machine for a trap field. And all the shots are in the same general direction, so it doesn't take nearly as much land to have a trap range as it does other shotgun sports games.

It's also the game that requires the least amount of knowledge and skill to become an "adequate" participant. Learn to shoot outgoing, consistently rising targets and BINGO, you're a trap shooter because that's the only type targets they throw. All these factors help keep the game cheap to shoot and popular for those people looking for something simple and easy compared to the other shooting sports. No complicated angles to figure out, and no complicated target trajectories to deal with. Just see target, shoot target. No thinking involved.

In case you're wondering... yes, I have run 25 straight on a trap field when practicing for those type targets for my sporting clays shooting, but that didn't entice me to continue shooting such a one dimensional game. I also like golf, but if the entire game of golf consisted of seeing how many 3 foot putts I could make in a row, I'd never play golf. I prefer games that require some thinking plus a variety of skills. Not everyone does.

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 Post subject: Re: It does not seem like a fair rule
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:06 am 
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Ulysses wrote:

. . . when practicing for those type targets for my sporting clays shooting . . .


Getting back on track, it seems that the major item under discussion is the trapshooting rule about a "soft load" (i.e., one that's not a completely dud shell), but rather a shell that does indeed "fire" but at some lower-than-normal power level.

Ulysses, you seem to be advocating that Trap should have a "judgement call" about whether or not a soft load was powerful enough to give the shooter a fair chance at the target, when in actuality (as several others have already stated in this thread), Trap rules contain a clear, unarguable indicator about whether or not a soft load qualifies for a "do-over" . . . and the indicator is whether or not any portion of the wad/shot remains in the barrel after firing. That's crystal clear . . . no gray area with that. All of the ejecta (wad and shot) either exited the barrel or it didn't.

Important: note that NSCA Sporting Clays defines a soft load exactly the same way as Trapshooting . . . i.e., any portion of the shot or wad remaining in the barrel or not (see excerpt below from the National Sporting Clays Association official rulebook). So, even in NSCA Sporting Clays, there is no judgement call whether or not a soft load qualifies as defective ammunition, so no judgement call whether or not a shooter gets a do-over . . . again, either all of the wad/shot exited the barrel, or it didn't.

Having said that, I believe NSSA Skeet rules do have a judgement call about an "odd sounding shell" whereby a soft load can be declared defective "in the sole judgment of the field referee does not deliver the shot the distance to the target, and therefore does not give the shooter a fair opportunity to break the target".


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 Post subject: Re: It does not seem like a fair rule
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:49 am 
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Jeff,

That's just PART of the discussion. The other part is the inconsistency involved with other rules. How is it consistent to hold the shooter responsible for a round that dribbles the wad and shot out the muzzle while at the same time giving a do-over if you forget to take the safety off or if you just don't like the looks of a certain target?

In NSCA, those things are LOST targets... as they should be. In NSCA, a mental fart is not an excuse. In trap, it can be if you want it to be.

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 Post subject: Re: It does not seem like a fair rule
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2021 12:09 pm 
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I find it interesting and amusing that people who don't like trap and don't shoot trap even bother to post about trap. I don't regularly shoot SC, Skeet or Bunker but I have put up respectable scores in all three and I have the talent and money to be successful in those disciplines if they appealed to me. But they don't so I just go along being pleased that they do to others and they get to participate in games they like as my fellow shooters.

As such, my opinion is that it would be arrogant, presumptuous and needlessly argumentative of me to go to their forums and comment in a critical way on their disciplines.

Consequently, I regard those that do that on a trap forum to be aaa...what's the word for that thing that everyone has one of?


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 Post subject: Re: It does not seem like a fair rule
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2021 5:35 pm 
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I shoot sporting occasionally and have shot registered clays. Actually shoot the game above average. Shoot skeet at my home club and shoot that well above average. I like trap because its more available, more competitive with more shooters and has more money to win. Took 2 years off of trap to play sporting seriously. Found a great group of people having fun. We shot a tournament every weekend spring- summer and fall and a few winter derbies.

Found the game unfair based on the time of day the targets were shot from a competitive perspective. Different trappers and sun position at each station made for different target presentation from time to time. Found the game expensive with no return to the shooters. Found the game limited in availability with few courses and few people in attendance. Those limits keep the sporting game irrelevant in the clay target arena.

For example: In Iowa the state trap shoot has 500 to 800 in attendance for 6 days with thousands of dollars available to win. The state sporting shoot cant field 150 shooters for a 2 day event. Skeet is pitiful in participation. Lucky to attract 50 shooters.

I do enjoy all the clay games, but as a competitive shooter I like the volume trap has to offer. And if I sound boastful, it is because I've shot the game since 1970. Shoot the game very well. Know what it takes to win and have on a national level most of my life. It becomes part of your life and then takes over becoming most of your life. With all your friends, socially and your time. Including volunteering to help the game grow and prosper. i shoot clays, 5-stand and skeet for fun, trap I shoot seriously. There are jackass in each of the disciplines. They are the critics that never help or contribute. The want-a-be trouble makers not willing to put in the time or effort to excel.

Maltz

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 Post subject: Re: It does not seem like a fair rule
PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:25 am 
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Location: somewhere east of the I-95 corridor, until you get to connecticut. but you can bank on vanzant, mo..
and people wonder why I just shoot fun shoots now.
and don't go tellin me trap shooting prepares youth for lifes road in the big world. people who cheat get fired and go hungry...unless cement shoes got worn for cheating.

good point made about pullers not being ref's. take note all you guys whackin' down good coin for matches. pullers are usually kids with no insight to the game.

at least nssa makes pullers go thru a ref test and get certified to score.
maybe it time for ata.

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 Post subject: Re: It does not seem like a fair rule
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2021 11:41 am 
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Location: Kansas, Land of Oz
Jim Tyner wrote:
he had a dud reloaded shell and missed the target. Looked in the barrel, no wad, lost target. He ended up with a 99 and lost. Later, I was helping clean the field and picked up his shell with the wad sticking out the top of the shell.

There are several things about this situation that don't quite pass the smell test.


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 Post subject: Re: It does not seem like a fair rule
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2021 1:21 pm 
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"There are several things about this situation that don't quite pass the smell test."

Are you calling me a liar? Not a really good idea.

What's so hard about this? He fired a dud shot and ejected the shell behind him and didn't bother to look at the shell because he was looking in the barrel for the wad. No wad, lost target, move on. It was what it was. I took the shell back to the patio and we all had a good chuckle about the fates of the game.


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 Post subject: Re: It does not seem like a fair rule
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2021 2:58 pm 
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Jim Tyner wrote:
Are you calling me a liar? Not a really good idea.


Image

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 Post subject: Re: It does not seem like a fair rule
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 9:14 am 
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Tyner and skeety......you could meet in the middle, say Modamzeri to settle this.

Maltz

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 Post subject: Re: It does not seem like a fair rule
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:36 am 
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Somebody once said that the best part about being in MO was that they weren't in Iowa. That seemed a little harsh to me.


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 Post subject: Re: It does not seem like a fair rule
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 10:42 am 
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Jim Tyner wrote:
Somebody once said that the best part about being in MO was that they weren't in Iowa. That seemed a little harsh to me.


Since both states are my play ground, I would live in either......be harsh :wink:

But.... it is a bit hard for a Kansas peckerwood to enter Modamzeri. Not sure a Kaladamfornian would make it out of either state. "Get a rope"

Maltz

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 Post subject: Re: It does not seem like a fair rule
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:23 pm 
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I'm a transplanted Okie. Oklahoma's main function in the world is to look down those living in Baja Oklahoma who call themselves "Texans" because they can't spell any words that are longer.


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 Post subject: Re: It does not seem like a fair rule
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 9:43 am 
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Its "Texacans"

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 Post subject: Re: It does not seem like a fair rule
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 7:10 pm 
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Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 9:17 pm
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Location: Kansas, Land of Oz
Jim Tyner wrote:
Are you calling me a liar? Not a really good idea.

What's so hard about this? He fired a dud shot and ejected the shell behind him and didn't bother to look at the shell because he was looking in the barrel for the wad. No wad, lost target, move on. It was what it was. I took the shell back to the patio and we all had a good chuckle about the fates of the game.

Not calling you a liar in any way. Saying something doesn't sound right.

If the primer went off, the wad would have left the shell.
(primers have more than enough energy to eject the wad from the hull, as shown by the millions of primer-only bloopers that leave the wads in barrels)
If the primer had not gone off, there were have been only the click of the hammer striking the firing pin and he would have gotten another shot because of a FTF.
Then, I've never seen anyone have a FTF or a blooper without ejecting the shell and looking at it.

Maybe I misread your post, but I went over it several times. I still can't see how this would happen.


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 Post subject: Re: It does not seem like a fair rule
PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:26 pm 
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Well, it happened just like I said it did. Maybe the primer was a light load. I was shooting with him when it happened and I picked up his shell from behind that station and he acknowledged it was his shell when I handed it to him.

You belief has no bearing on the reality.


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 Post subject: Re: It does not seem like a fair rule
PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:27 pm 
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Location: Kansas, Land of Oz
I didn't say I didn't believe you.
I believe you.
That's because there are few members on this forum that I respect more than you.

I'm saying it seems so odd that I'm having trouble figuring out why/how it happened the way it did.
Not IF it happened, but HOW it happened.

Sometimes I choose my words poorly. This was one of those cases. Please accept my apology.




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