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 Post subject: It does not seem like a fair rule
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 10:52 am 
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I have a friend shooting as we speak in a major trap shoot. He is an excellent shot and usually in the final shoot offs. I have to admit I don't know much about trap rules. Yesterday he was shooting quality factory Remington STS shells and one was a dud but the wad barely cleared the barrel and the clay was declared lost. He thinks his score of 97 instead of 98 will keep him out of the shoot off.
What is the reason for this rule as it does not seem fair to me ?




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 Post subject: Re: It does not seem like a fair rule
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 11:37 am 
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If the wad clears the barrel, then it isn't considered an ammo malfunction. I think the reason for this rule is to not get into an argument about what is or isn't a bad shell.

If you can see the wad, then most likely there wasn't much powder behind it and is a bad shell. But if that is the standard, then anytime there is an off sounding load a shooter can simple say, I saw the wad, bad shell.

Objectively, it is easy to determine if the wad is or isn't in the barrel.

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 Post subject: Re: It does not seem like a fair rule
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 12:24 pm 
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Good answer Jim.

The historic basis of clay target sports is simulated hunting. You have to kill the target. If you have a dud shell, the duck ain't coming around again while you reload.

I was shooting an ATA shoot with a friend who was AAA and he had a dud reloaded shell and missed the target. Looked in the barrel, no wad, lost target. He ended up with a 99 and lost. Later, I was helping clean the field and picked up his shell with the wad sticking out the top of the shell. Had anyone looked at the ejected shell he would have gotten a new target and would doubtlessly broken it. Rules are rules.


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 Post subject: Re: It does not seem like a fair rule
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 12:38 pm 
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The rule was instituted to make it fair actually. I've seen guys claim a dud shell when it actually went off as intended. Unfortunately that's life and guys will try to game the system whenever they can.

If the wad hasn't left the barrel then it's obvious it was a dud. Under these conditions it makes sense to count it as a malfunction.

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 Post subject: Re: It does not seem like a fair rule
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 12:57 pm 
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Same rule applies to everyone and is enforced consistently? Seems like the very definition of the word "fair".

Sucks for your friend though, cannot even imagine how frustrating and heartbreaking that would be.


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 Post subject: Re: It does not seem like a fair rule
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:10 pm 
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How about a shooting buddy on the squad saying "I saw a chip" when the scorer calls a "lost" target? How is that scored? I'm asking for a friend. 8)

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 Post subject: Re: It does not seem like a fair rule
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:56 pm 
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A friend or squad mate has no power to enforce "I saw a chip". The referee has the final say and can take or ignore the other squad mate's advice.

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 Post subject: Re: It does not seem like a fair rule
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 5:24 pm 
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pintailwizard wrote:
A friend or squad mate has no power to enforce "I saw a chip". The referee has the final say and can take or ignore the other squad mate's advice.


Sounds reasonable. So why wouldn't this same referee be trusted to call an equipment or ammo malfunction if he hears only a quiet "pop" from a primer (instead of a typical shotgun blast)?

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 Post subject: Re: It does not seem like a fair rule
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 6:19 pm 
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First, there is no "referee" except for a shoot off.

Second, it is the scorer that has final say on lost or dead. However, I have never seen a scorer overrule a squad member who calls a chip.

Third, people will and do cheat.


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 Post subject: Re: It does not seem like a fair rule
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:12 pm 
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Jim Tyner wrote:
First, there is no "referee" except for a shoot off.

Second, it is the scorer that has final say on lost or dead. However, I have never seen a scorer overrule a squad member who calls a chip.

Third, people will and do cheat.


I was kind of confused about that "referee" thing myself, but I didn't want to dispute what someone else called the person doing the scoring/judging. So, as I now understand it, it's highly unlikely that a scorer will overrule a squad member who calls a chip (even though the scorer saw no chip and the squad member who called it may be the shooter's best buddy), but yet the scorer who plainly heard a faint primer pop instead of a typical shotgun muzzle blast is not allowed to call an equipment/ammo malfunction even though he is 99.999% certain that there was something wrong with the equipment or the ammo???

So, why is it that a squad buddy can, in effect, make the call on a chip (which may be questionable at best), but neither they nor the scorer is allowed to call a malfunction when it is clearly obvious to everyone that the shell was defective? Just wondering.

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 Post subject: Re: It does not seem like a fair rule
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 9:11 am 
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A true sportsman will declare seeing a chip on a target that the scorer has called lost, if in fact a chip is recognized. It has nothing to do with being a buddy. Generally more than one of the shooters will echo the same result, "I saw a chip". It's always better to have more than one set of eyes watching the targets. As far as the rule regarding the wad clearing the barrel to establish a lost target or a failure to fire, it is clearly stated and really can't be argued. If the wad stays at the end of the shell upon firing it is definitely the SHOOTER'S responsibility to observe this and no one else. Stuff happens, that's life. Good luck!


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 Post subject: Re: It does not seem like a fair rule
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 9:32 am 
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How many ammo malfunctions and/or total malfs are allowed in a round of ATA , Bunker, Doubles etc? Also I guess I am would also like to know how many shots are in a round? I have never shot round of registered trap or skeet.

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 Post subject: Re: It does not seem like a fair rule
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 11:41 am 
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there is a hundred rounds fired for score, but done at 25 round intervals.

it's been a minute since I read the ATA rules, but I believe your given either 2 or 3 malfunctions per hundred rounds.
I remember years back [96-97?] Remington had a bad batch of primers [right when they switched to the 209P primer] and their fairly new still STS shells would have a 2-3% dud rate in some flats, and a 100% success rate in others.

hoo boy there was some cussin on the line, back then it was still common for them to have added prize money and people would still play the class purse, so you could have a pretty big payday if you shot well.


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 Post subject: Re: It does not seem like a fair rule
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 1:33 pm 
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Actually an "Event" is usually 100 targets and there are 4 subevents of 25. The ATA also allows a "Big 50" which has 50 targets. Scores are for each sub-event. If you have shot the first 2 subevents and can't continue then your score is posted and registered based on that 50. If you start the 3rd subevent and you hit the first 5 targets but then have to withdraw, your score 55/75. Not great for your overall average.

You are allowed two failure to fire (FTFs) in each subevent; the third is a lost target. A shot where the wad doesn't clear the barrel is recorded as a FTF. If it clears the barrel it is counted as a shot at the target.

The reason for using the wad is that it is an objective measurement compared to the subjective opinion of anybody listening to the report.


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 Post subject: Re: It does not seem like a fair rule
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 1:46 pm 
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Hey, at least you get two whoopsie doodles per sub event in trap.

Safety on/wrong barrel/"finch", didn't like that hard left/right angle? Just take one of your two do-overs.

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 Post subject: Re: It does not seem like a fair rule
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:05 pm 
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The best rule is what they use for ‘flyers’, you call for a bird you bought it. No ammo malfunctions, no gun malfunctions, no do overs.

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 Post subject: Re: It does not seem like a fair rule
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 8:12 pm 
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"Safety on/wrong barrel/"finch", didn't like that hard left/right angle? Just take one of your two do-overs."

Thanks for pointing that out. It's a rule that has worked very well in trap competitions.


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 Post subject: Re: It does not seem like a fair rule
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:08 pm 
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Jim Tyner wrote:
"Safety on/wrong barrel/"finch", didn't like that hard left/right angle? Just take one of your two do-overs."

Thanks for pointing that out. It's a rule that has worked very well in trap competitions.


If the trap rules are going to allow "do overs" for obvious shooters mistakes, then why not allow an ammo or gun malfunction to count as one of the allowed "do overs"? Why give the shooter a freebie when he screws up and then penalize him for something that quite likely he had no control over?

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 Post subject: Re: It does not seem like a fair rule
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2021 8:31 am 
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Many things in life are not fair, accept it and continue. Chance are your friend also has beat out other shooters that in their eyes where beat by a call or situation they think was unfair.

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 Post subject: Re: It does not seem like a fair rule
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2021 8:55 am 
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rbdjr wrote:
Many things in life are not fair, accept it and continue. Chance are your friend also has beat out other shooters that in their eyes where beat by a call or situation they think was unfair.


There are many things in life that we have no control over and can't be changed. However, rules of a game are something that CAN be changed. If you're going to participate in the game and care about fairness, then why not try to get the rules changed instead of just shrugging your shoulders and saying "Well, that's life"?



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