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 Post subject: 1904 A-5 SN 12400 and 1907 A-5 SN 24924
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:25 am 
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Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:10 am
Posts: 557
Location: Hannover, Germany
Gentlemen,

as already discussed here:

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=194558

My 1904 A-5 SN 12400 and my 1907 A-5 SN 24924 arrived recently from England. Yesterday, I finally had the opportunity to examine both guns.

Well, both are candidates for the “Dog of the week” contest. I did not expect much, but I’m disappointed anyway.


Let’s start with the 1904 #12400:

Image

Barrel: Matching to the gun

Image

Barrel address: FABRIQUE –NATIONALE - HERSTAL-LIEGE. BELGIUM.

Steel indication: ACIER – SPECIAL

Image

Receiver legend:

FABRIQUE - NATIONALE - HERSTAL - LIEGE. BELGIUM – BROWNING’S – PATENTS.
OCT. 9. 1900 – DEC. 17. 1901 – SEPT. 30. 1902 – JUNE. 16. 1903

Chamber length: 65 mm (= 2 9/16”)

Stock: Straight English stock and early forearm; checkered (matching SN )

Recoil spring: square coil diameter

Technical features:
- safety type 2
- square cartridge stop
- punch port (“access hole”) located towards the cartridge stop, not over carrier screw
- magazine cut-off (factory original)
- no screw securing the magazine tube on the right side

Image

Image

Image

Image

Issues: Oh boy! The whole thing is one single issue! The magazine tube (fine thread) is bend – consequently, the gun isn’t working at present. Adjusting the magazine tube will be the job for my gun smith. Hopefully, his results will be better than the ones of somebody else, who tried to make it. The receiver’s front portion as the magazine tube as well are showing signs of heat treatment (somebody tried to get the tube out – with no luck). No blueing on the receiver and the barrel (except for some places around the barrel ring).

Image

Pros: original checkered stock and forearm.

Image

Image

Image

Image


Oddities: the barrel has two weight indications: 0.8236 kilograms and 0.8196 kilograms (a difference of 4 grams = 61.728 grain). I don’t know, why this was done.

Image

-------------------------------------


1907 # 24924

Image

Barrel: Matching to the gun

Image

Barrel address: FABRIQUE –NATIONALE - HERSTAL-LIEGE. BELGIUM.

Steel indication: ACIER – SPECIAL

Chamber length: 65 mm (= 2 9/16”)

Image

Receiver legend:

FABRIQUE - NATIONALE - HERSTAL - LIEGE. BELGIUM – BROWNING’S – PATENTS.
OCT. 9. 1900 – DEC. 17. 1901 – SEPT. 30. 1902 – JUNE. 16. 1903

Image

Stock: matching round pistol grip / forearm not matching (replacement)

Recoil spring: square coil diameter

Technical features:
- safety type 2
- rounded (on bottom) cartridge stop
- punch port (“access hole”) located towards the cartridge stop
- magazine cut-off (factory original)

Image

- no screw securing the magazine tube on the right side

Image

Issues: Action spring tube broken off. Somebody already soldered it but did a lousy job. The tube currently is sticking within the stock.

Image

Stock is better than expected. Has a big chip on the right side, but it can be repaired (and will be repaired).

Image

Image

Image

I will present both guns when the reanimation projects will be finished. What will take some time.

Regarding the 1904: the interesting part of this gun is, that’s currently the lowest SN known having a factory installed magazine cut-off and the punch hole in front, not over the screw. And that is the most irritating part of this gun: Jeff Mull’s 1904 SN 12658 looks like one would expect a 1904 A-5:

viewtopic.php?t=134453

For the time being I believe, there was no “sudden” change of features, but there obviously seems to be a mix-up of old style models having higher SNs and “modern” guns having lower SNs. Also it seems, the magazine cut-off was an option for some extra $. Jeff’s 1906 having no magazine cut-off does suggest this.

Regarding the 1907: well, that gun is OK. And a round pistol grip stock is a plus, as this definitely was an extra (9 $) at that time making a round pistol grip stock rarer on a 1907 gun.

Best regards

Martin



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 Post subject: Re: 1904 A-5 SN 12400 and 1907 A-5 SN 24924
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:58 pm 
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Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 3:41 pm
Posts: 386
Sauerfan-

Yeah, the 1907 is a little doggy :wink: . Seriously, though, I know you are somewhat disappointed, but I think these are great finds!

They both have some nice wood character hidden under the century of dirt and wear. I think they will clean up really nicely.

The 1907 is a rarity in the US as it seems relatively few from 1905 to 1908 period made it here. 1904's are relatively common by comparison! Nice to see this example to bridge the '06-'09 gap.

I'm particularly envious of your 1904! You're fortunate to have a nearly 100% complete & original gun with the original wood in such nice condition! I think the receiver will clean up well also...and maybe you can get the heated area to blend a bit more. Hopefully did not adversely affect temper? Based on the checkering, I guess this is what is refered to as the trap model, at least, that's what it would have been if it had been destined for the US market.

The combination of receiver features makes it such a unique treasure. I know you were expecting/hoping for a type 1 safety instead of type 2 (although I'd personally prefer original type 2)...is the trigger guard tang numbered to the gun? If not, supports the possibility that the trigger group had been changed out to upgrade the safety. I suppose the original trigger tang could have been milled out to fit a type 2 safety, but that would have been more work. The mag cuttoff could have been a subsequent factory modification, although as you pointed out, the lack of mag tube screw does not support this.

Quote:
Oddities: the barrel has two weight indications: 0.8236 kilograms and 0.8196 kilograms (a difference of 4 grams = 61.728 grain). I don’t know, why this was done.

How long is the barrel? What is it choked and what does the actual chamber measure?

Quote:
Also it seems, the magazine cut-off was an option for some extra $. Jeff’s 1906 having no magazine cut-off does suggest this.

If true, it would make sense that your 1904, being the higher "trap grade" would have such an extra $ feature.

Looking forward to seeing the progress of your "reanimation" projects!

Regards,
Decoy

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Browning: "Our ruling principle: Not how cheap or how many, but 'how good can guns be made.'"


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 Post subject: Re: 1904 A-5 SN 12400 and 1907 A-5 SN 24924
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:24 am 
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Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:10 am
Posts: 557
Location: Hannover, Germany
Hi Decoy,

Quote:
They both have some nice wood character hidden under the century of dirt and wear. I think they will clean up really nicely.


Yes, I think so too. Especially the wood of the 1907 stock seems to be nice.

Quote:
Based on the checkering, I guess this is what is refered to as the trap model, at least, that's what it would have been if it had been destined for the US market.


Ah, yes, thanks for reminding me. Hum, maybe this is an explanation for the short chamber? Who knows, maybe in some countries only short cartridges were allowed for Trap shooting?

Quote:
is the trigger guard tang numbered to the gun? If not, supports the possibility that the trigger group had been changed out to upgrade the safety. I suppose the original trigger tang could have been milled out to fit a type 2 safety, but that would have been more work. The mag cutoff could have been a subsequent factory modification, although as you pointed out, the lack of mag tube screw does not support this.


Well, currently, I can’t examine the gun, as it went back with my father who will bring it to our gun smith. But I don’t think, the trigger tang was reworked to fit a type 2 safety. Check out Shirley/Vanderlinden, page 220, upper gun: has the same technical features as my 1904: square cartridge stop, magazine cutoff, type 2 safety. And remember, FN filed their patents for the magazine cutoff and the type 2 safety, respectively, on 23th January, 1904. Consequently, these inventions were ready at said date making it possible, that these features were used already early in 1904.

Quote:
How long is the barrel? What is it choked and what does the actual chamber measure?


Unfortunately, I forgot to measure the barrel when I had it here. At least, I can help regarding the choke:

Image

Full choke, I assume?

Regards

Martin

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Value? Open an auction at GB or AA and in two weeks you'll know exactly....


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 Post subject: Re: 1904 A-5 SN 12400 and 1907 A-5 SN 24924
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:32 am 
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Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:10 am
Posts: 557
Location: Hannover, Germany
Gentlemen,

while going through the photos of my new project guns I noticed a technical difference I did not notice before:

The Profile of the operating handle

I checked Shirley/Vanderlinden and all photos available (especially of Jeff Mull’s honeys) and yes, the profile of the operating handle of the A-5s in 1903 and 1904, respectively, are different from the ones of 1906 and later (maybe 1905 already?). It isn’t easy to see this in a side view – but when looking from above or from the bottom on the handle it’s obvious: the handle of the 1903/04 guns have a triangular profile, while at least from 1906 on they have the Shark’s dorsal fin profile, we all are familiar with.

Image

The cross sectional drawings are from a post 1909 owner’s manual (but actually showing a 1904 gun) and from a 1929 dated owner’s manual.
Regards

Martin

P.S: the funny thing of it: when I had both guns in my hands, I did not realize this.

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 Post subject: Re: 1904 A-5 SN 12400 and 1907 A-5 SN 24924
PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:38 am 
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Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 3:41 pm
Posts: 386
Quote:
Quote:
Based on the checkering, I guess this is what is refered to as the trap model, at least, that's what it would have been if it had been destined for the US market.


Ah, yes, thanks for reminding me. Hum, maybe this is an explanation for the short chamber? Who knows, maybe in some countries only short cartridges were allowed for Trap shooting?

Based on the few 65mm chambered examples that have turned up, I'm inclined to agree with English Jay that it was likely offered to some markets as a typical chambering of the day, rather than for a particular game (trap).

Quote:
Quote:
How long is the barrel? What is it choked and what does the actual chamber measure?

I was wondering if a change to the barrel length, choke and/or chamber could account for a 4gram OA wt change...

Quote:
The Profile of the operating handle

I checked Shirley/Vanderlinden and all photos available (especially of Jeff Mull’s honeys) and yes, the profile of the operating handle of the A-5s in 1903 and 1904, respectively, are different from the ones of 1906 and later (maybe 1905 already?).

The charging handle upgrade is one that I definitely consider a major improvement (along with any post-type 1 safety & mag cutoff)! I'm not much of a fan of the old blocky wedge-style from a functionality perspective.

_________________
Browning: "Our ruling principle: Not how cheap or how many, but 'how good can guns be made.'"


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 Post subject: Re: 1904 A-5 SN 12400 and 1907 A-5 SN 24924
PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:27 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2009 3:12 pm
Posts: 342
Location: Alamogordo N.M
My 1904, just seems to point and hit better than the 1940 or 1950 standard 12, even with the longer barrel must be the straight stock


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 Post subject: Re: 1904 A-5 SN 12400 and 1907 A-5 SN 24924
PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:53 pm 
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Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 3:41 pm
Posts: 386
Hey 16penny-

Glad to have you join in on the conversation! I take it you've had some hunting or clays success with your 1904?

BTW, is there a divot or hole on the left side of your receiver in front of your rear trigger plate screw?

Did you end up changing the stock screw or making any other changes?

Ever find a source for straight stocks?

Decoy

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Browning: "Our ruling principle: Not how cheap or how many, but 'how good can guns be made.'"


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 Post subject: Re: 1904 A-5 SN 12400 and 1907 A-5 SN 24924
PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 10:40 pm 
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Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 3:41 pm
Posts: 386
Sauerfan-

Something just occurred to me. Every early A5 breech block I have seen has been proof marked similarly to your 1907. Your 1904, however, looks like it only has the lion over PV (smokeless powder) proof on the breech block, such as guns from the 1950's and 1960's. Replacement? If so, interesting that the early-style "wedge" operating handle is present. More so, I'd find this particularly interesting if it works with the original barrel as the early guns had a narrower breech block slot milled in the barrel extension than the later guns. In my experience, a later breech block won't fit into an earlier barrel extension. Hmmmm, I smell yet another mystery with this gun.

I'm curious when you get the 1904 disassembled. Does the breech block/locking block have two grooves/rails or a single groove/rail setup? What is the width of the barrel extension groove in which the breech block rides? Is the barrel extension number match the barrel & receiver?

Decoy

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Browning: "Our ruling principle: Not how cheap or how many, but 'how good can guns be made.'"


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 Post subject: Re: 1904 A-5 SN 12400 and 1907 A-5 SN 24924
PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 11:29 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2009 3:12 pm
Posts: 342
Location: Alamogordo N.M
Hey. There is a 1/8 ''wide divot on the left side as mentioned. also a 1/64'' wide divot on the right side. 3/4'' above the front of trigger guard .B.T.W the forearm feels so mutch better on the .04 It's like nevermind ! everyone who picks up this gun just shoots well !


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 Post subject: Re: 1904 A-5 SN 12400 and 1907 A-5 SN 24924
PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 5:24 am 
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Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:10 am
Posts: 557
Location: Hannover, Germany
Decoy wrote:
Sauerfan-

Something just occurred to me. Every early A5 breech block I have seen has been proof marked similarly to your 1907. Your 1904, however, looks like it only has the lion over PV (smokeless powder) proof on the breech block, such as guns from the 1950's and 1960's. Replacement? If so, interesting that the early-style "wedge" operating handle is present. More so, I'd find this particularly interesting if it works with the original barrel as the early guns had a narrower breech block slot milled in the barrel extension than the later guns. In my experience, a later breech block won't fit into an earlier barrel extension. Hmmmm, I smell yet another mystery with this gun.

I'm curious when you get the 1904 disassembled. Does the breech block/locking block have two grooves/rails or a single groove/rail setup? What is the width of the barrel extension groove in which the breech block rides? Is the barrel extension number match the barrel & receiver?

Decoy


Hi Decoy,

thanks for the bad news. Honestly, I also noticed the unusual proof on the breech block and I just thought “Oh, oh….this doesn’t look good.” No, most probably the breech block isn’t original. But we’ll know for sure, when we will have disassembled the gun completely. Let’s see, what other “nice” surprises we will find then…… I’m quiet frustrated: my first very early A-5 and a total flop (real lemon). Stock and forearm are OK, but that’s it.

Please rest a little bit patient – it will take some time until we’ll take enough courage to examine the patient to get a diagnosis: ICU or morgue. I fear, this patient might be a candidate for the morgue. :(

Regards

Martin

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 Post subject: Re: 1904 A-5 SN 12400 and 1907 A-5 SN 24924
PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 8:27 am 
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Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 3:41 pm
Posts: 386
Sauerfan-
Quote:
I fear, this patient might be a candidate for the morgue.


Maybe we have a different level of expectation. To me, this is a gem, and this discovery phase is one of the best parts of such a purchase! Don't get me wrong, it would be wonderful to have a 100% complete, functioning, high condition early gun...but those are like hen's teeth. I expect that a 100+ year old gun, when I can find one, is going to have some issues. There's an up-side to everything. That just gives some good fodder for the next phase of our hobby, the "project phase!" To me, all the more rewarding when done.

If the breech block has been replaced and works properly, the silver lining is that we would then know what it would take to make a late block work with an early extension/receiver...good information!

Have fun,
Decoy

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Browning: "Our ruling principle: Not how cheap or how many, but 'how good can guns be made.'"


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 Post subject: Re: 1904 A-5 SN 12400 and 1907 A-5 SN 24924
PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 9:16 am 
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Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2009 3:12 pm
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Location: Alamogordo N.M
once you get finished youll have a cool old shooter to enjoy :D also still no straight stocks to be had :(


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 Post subject: Re: 1904 A-5 SN 12400 and 1907 A-5 SN 24924
PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 10:26 am 
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Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:10 am
Posts: 557
Location: Hannover, Germany
Decoy, 16penny,

thanks for your comfort. I appreciate this. Well, let's see, how the reanimation project will develop - I'll let you know.


16penny wrote:
also still no straight stocks to be had :(


16penny,

PM sent.

Regards

Martin

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 Post subject: Re: 1904 A-5 SN 12400 and 1907 A-5 SN 24924
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:34 am 
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Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:10 am
Posts: 557
Location: Hannover, Germany
Gentlemen,

another interesting detail appeared on my 104 as well as on the 1907: both bronze friction pieces do look different from the normal ones: both do have several alternating axial half-cuts, i. e. from top, then from bottom.

Image

Image

Image

The one on the 1904 is broken into three or four parts while the 1907 piece is undamaged.

Obviously, the very first bronze pieces did have this design which seems to be break-prone. This very same design is shown in the parts diagram of an A-5 in my 1909 manual.

Image

Regards

Martin

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 Post subject: Re: 1904 A-5 SN 12400 and 1907 A-5 SN 24924
PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 1:54 pm 
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Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2015 1:46 pm
Posts: 3
Fabrique Nationale Browning Auto-5 12g 1904-D. for sale in Denmark..
Serial number 12459

http://www.guloggratis.dk/sport/jagt-og ... sg72314808


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 Post subject: Re: 1904 A-5 SN 12400 and 1907 A-5 SN 24924
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 6:20 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2008 10:41 pm
Posts: 879
Location: Republic of Texas
Martin, perhaps you & Swift should get together......
https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=198525


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 Post subject: Re: 1904 A-5 SN 12400 and 1907 A-5 SN 24924
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 7:54 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2020 7:13 pm
Posts: 5
Hello,
Would you help me to date my A5- 16 GA? I see it coincides with your 1910-12 in most things but I am unsure. I have purchased it in Germany not long ago. By the way it shots incredibly well!
S/N is 6360

Thanks in advance.
Here are the photos
[url]https://photos.app.goo.gl/ULKo7UaNcxey4qU8A
[/url]



sauerfan wrote:
Gentlemen,

as already discussed here:

https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewto ... 3&t=194558

My 1904 A-5 SN 12400 and my 1907 A-5 SN 24924 arrived recently from England. Yesterday, I finally had the opportunity to examine both guns.

Well, both are candidates for the “Dog of the week” contest. I did not expect much, but I’m disappointed anyway.


Let’s start with the 1904 #12400:

Image

Barrel: Matching to the gun

Image

Barrel address: FABRIQUE –NATIONALE - HERSTAL-LIEGE. BELGIUM.

Steel indication: ACIER – SPECIAL

Image

Receiver legend:

FABRIQUE - NATIONALE - HERSTAL - LIEGE. BELGIUM – BROWNING’S – PATENTS.
OCT. 9. 1900 – DEC. 17. 1901 – SEPT. 30. 1902 – JUNE. 16. 1903

Chamber length: 65 mm (= 2 9/16”)

Stock: Straight English stock and early forearm; checkered (matching SN )

Recoil spring: square coil diameter

Technical features:
- safety type 2
- square cartridge stop
- punch port (“access hole”) located towards the cartridge stop, not over carrier screw
- magazine cut-off (factory original)
- no screw securing the magazine tube on the right side

Image

Image

Image

Image

Issues: Oh boy! The whole thing is one single issue! The magazine tube (fine thread) is bend – consequently, the gun isn’t working at present. Adjusting the magazine tube will be the job for my gun smith. Hopefully, his results will be better than the ones of somebody else, who tried to make it. The receiver’s front portion as the magazine tube as well are showing signs of heat treatment (somebody tried to get the tube out – with no luck). No blueing on the receiver and the barrel (except for some places around the barrel ring).

Image

Pros: original checkered stock and forearm.

Image

Image

Image

Image


Oddities: the barrel has two weight indications: 0.8236 kilograms and 0.8196 kilograms (a difference of 4 grams = 61.728 grain). I don’t know, why this was done.

Image

-------------------------------------


1907 # 24924

Image

Barrel: Matching to the gun

Image

Barrel address: FABRIQUE –NATIONALE - HERSTAL-LIEGE. BELGIUM.

Steel indication: ACIER – SPECIAL

Chamber length: 65 mm (= 2 9/16”)

Image

Receiver legend:

FABRIQUE - NATIONALE - HERSTAL - LIEGE. BELGIUM – BROWNING’S – PATENTS.
OCT. 9. 1900 – DEC. 17. 1901 – SEPT. 30. 1902 – JUNE. 16. 1903

Image

Stock: matching round pistol grip / forearm not matching (replacement)

Recoil spring: square coil diameter

Technical features:
- safety type 2
- rounded (on bottom) cartridge stop
- punch port (“access hole”) located towards the cartridge stop
- magazine cut-off (factory original)

Image

- no screw securing the magazine tube on the right side

Image

Issues: Action spring tube broken off. Somebody already soldered it but did a lousy job. The tube currently is sticking within the stock.

Image

Stock is better than expected. Has a big chip on the right side, but it can be repaired (and will be repaired).

Image

Image

Image

I will present both guns when the reanimation projects will be finished. What will take some time.

Regarding the 1904: the interesting part of this gun is, that’s currently the lowest SN known having a factory installed magazine cut-off and the punch hole in front, not over the screw. And that is the most irritating part of this gun: Jeff Mull’s 1904 SN 12658 looks like one would expect a 1904 A-5:

https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=134453

For the time being I believe, there was no “sudden” change of features, but there obviously seems to be a mix-up of old style models having higher SNs and “modern” guns having lower SNs. Also it seems, the magazine cut-off was an option for some extra $. Jeff’s 1906 having no magazine cut-off does suggest this.

Regarding the 1907: well, that gun is OK. And a round pistol grip stock is a plus, as this definitely was an extra (9 $) at that time making a round pistol grip stock rarer on a 1907 gun.

Best regards

Martin




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