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 Post subject: Re: Guide to Straight Wall Hulls
PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 1:12 pm 
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Basically, there are only two types of plastic hulls, reifenhauser & one piece compression formed, molded or whatever. Some one piece hulls are tapered. Today, most are not. I would say none but some have at least a bit of taper at the bottom. The Federal Gold medal hull & hunting hulls are one piece & have relatively thin hull walls. Reifenhauser hulls vary primarily in the type & height of the basewad. If a hull is really tapered, that would surely affect wad fit & function. The inside dimension of hulls made today, & therefore wad fit, is primarily dictated by the wall thickness of the hull. Why would a Federal one piece hunting hull use a different type of wad than a paper based Federal wad, or even a STS hull? Then there are other factors that determine how a wad functions in a specific hull. Straight wall, tapered wall wads is an obsolete designation. That Rem. hull with the plastic insert in the back looks like a B&P hull. I like that Idea. Less metal means maybe they can afford to use real brass. Jamomatics are rather hard on case rims, at least with some. Break open guns don't require any metal in the hull. The absence of metal would be an improvement, at least for break open guns. Active hulls did have some metal in them. I don't know about Wanda & Herter's all plastic hulls.
Also, just because Remchester is stamped on a hull, doesn't mean they made it.




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 Post subject: Re: Guide to Straight Wall Hulls
PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:27 pm 
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geometric wrote:
Basically, there are only two types of plastic hulls, reifenhauser & one piece compression formed, molded or whatever. Some one piece hulls are tapered. Today, most are not. I would say none but some have at least a bit of taper at the bottom.

The only remaining one piece hulls in current production I know of are the Remington Unibody/STS hull and they do have a prominent taper, that's how they get it to slide out of the mold easier. The old Remington RXP/Blue Magic and Federal Champion had a very significant taper, far more than the Unibody hull.

geometric wrote:
The Federal Gold medal hull & hunting hulls are one piece & have relatively thin hull walls. Reifenhauser hulls vary primarily in the type & height of the basewad. If a hull is really tapered, that would surely affect wad fit & function. The inside dimension of hulls made today, & therefore wad fit, is primarily dictated by the wall thickness of the hull. Why would a Federal one piece hunting hull use a different type of wad than a paper based Federal wad, or even a STS hull?
They don't, both Federal hulls use the same wads, and any wad that's a proper fit in the Federals will bulge the Remington if seated down far enough.

geometric wrote:
That Rem. hull with the plastic insert in the back looks like a B&P hull. I like that Idea. Less metal means maybe they can afford to use real brass....
Also, just because Remchester is stamped on a hull, doesn't mean they made it.

Good catch, you are correct. B&P loaded these for Remington for the Australia/New Zealand markets, and perhaps others.

When you really look at it, most of the shotgunners in the world may have never seen a real Remington Unibody or Winchester CF hull.


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 Post subject: Re: Guide to Straight Wall Hulls
PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:22 pm 
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Quote:
When you really look at it, most of the shotgunners in the world may have never seen a real Remington Unibody or Winchester CF hull.


For those too young to remember or have forgotten, check out this 1965 Winchester catalog and pull up page 30. Compare the quality to what is being produced today. Ah, when folks were proud to make the best, not the cheapest.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/33502858/1965-Winchester-Sporting-Arms-and-Ammo

I actually picked up some of the Mark 5 wrappers at my skeet field. I just about fell over to find them as the shells would be collector's items not practice shells. Never did find the hulls though.

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 Post subject: Re: Guide to Straight Wall Hulls
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 6:49 pm 
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I am looking to reload some B&P hulls for hunting loads. I will be making up some loads to send out for testing and therefore am not working off a set recipe. I had planned to use either Win209 or Rem209 primers. Should I use something else (Cheddite, Fiocchi?) for the B&P hulls?


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 Post subject: Re: Guide to Straight Wall Hulls
PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:09 am 
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doverham wrote:
I am looking to reload some B&P hulls for hunting loads. I will be making up some loads to send out for testing and therefore am not working off a set recipe. I had planned to use either Win209 or Rem209 primers. Should I use something else (Cheddite, Fiocchi?) for the B&P hulls?

Sorry for the late reply to this, but I think it was answered in another post.

The primer pockets on the B&P hulls have no metal in them and the plastic seems springy enough to hold ant primer snugly enough. I have fired many of these with US sized primers with no trouble but others have reported size issues.

If you are using these in a break open gun it doesn't matter, but in an autoloader you would want to try a small test batch first.

Please post the test results and details of you load when done, it would be interesting to see what you have done.


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 Post subject: Re: Guide to Straight Wall Hulls
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 12:28 am 
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Cerberus,
I don't want to pour cold water on your fine post by arguing about an insignificant detail. Thanks for the info., I'm sure it is very useful for many folks & maybe me too. I don't have the book in front of me but the forth edition of "Lyman's reloading Manual" called one of the one piece hulls Rem. made,"a straight or straight wall hull". I think if I remember correctly they were the Unibody hulls. The STS &/or the forerunner of the STS were refereed too as tapered & Lyman listed different data for them. Apparently, even in those days, just because you had a CF hull, didn't mean it was a tapered hull. The term "Reifenhauser" comes from the German company that invented the process & I do believe it predates the plastic basewad. A reifenhauser hull can have a paper basewad unless I am badly mistaken but that is mostly a mute point. Just because a wad is deamed to be a so called "straight wall wad" doesn't necessarily mean it has a greater diameter than a so called "tapered wall wad" or that it will fit too tight in a CF hull. I am not sure if Federal changed their wad dimensions or not but I had a batch of Federal 20 ga. wads years ago that were a loose fit in Fed. hulls & fit AA CF hulls just fine. I never had any wad bulge any hull. I am not implying yours didn't but it is not imminent that they will. My Fed. wads worked great in either hull.
The Gunclub type hull or whatever you want to call it does have some taper but it is near the bottom & for all practical purposes it has straight walls. I have cut them apart & inserted very tight fitting Euro. wads in them & they pick up no significant resistance until they are at the bottom of the hull. Not enough force involved to bulge anything. The STS 12ga. hulls I just bought may have some taper but it is not apparent & I can't find it. I would say it is less than the Gunclub hulls if there is any & the plastic walls are thinner.
I do believe Federal Gold Metal Hulls are still in production as well as the one piece Federal hunting hulls. It doesn't make a hill of beans anyway. Just use the wad that fits &/or works best in your hull & forget the jargon.


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 Post subject: Re: Guide to Straight Wall Hulls
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:49 am 
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Cerberus wrote:
Please post the test results and details of you load when done, it would be interesting to see what you have done.


I loaded 20 rounds of fiber wad loads in 20 ga. once-fired B&P F2 Legend hulls to send out for testing. 15 were loaded with Win 209 primers without any issues. 5 were loaded with Cheddite primers, 2 of which fell out once they were off the reloader (MEC 600). Because I was loading fiber wads, I used more wad compression, so that may have been a factor. Once I re-inserted them, they stayed put, so I sent them off for testing just to get some data on how they compare with Win 209 primers - but I won't be using them in these hulls.


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 Post subject: Re: Guide to Straight Wall Hulls
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:33 pm 
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Quote:
When you really look at it, most of the shotgunners in the world may have never seen a real Remington Unibody or Winchester CF hull.


(I know this thread is primarily about two piece hulls but given that, I thought many might be interested in this:)

Very true, but Winchester Australia actually made the Compression Formed Hull in this country for many years. AFAIK they continued to do so for a year or few after they were discontinued in the USA.
Perhaps you may find it surprising that the Winchester CF hull was also sold to ICI/IMI Eley during the '70's and '80's for loading with Eley brand names (incredibly, in competition with Winchesters own offerings!). Winchester Australia and Eley also loaded CF shells under other brand names in in other colours as well, including Beretta, Browning.
It is my understanding that the Aussie made Winchesters and Eleys made it in large numbers to New Zealand, and perhaps to other Oceania markets. Winchester Australia, at least until recently, sent shipments to Japan as well. I would assume, but can't confirm, they were also CF shells.

Some examples:

Image

The shells on the left are Eley variants, The red on in the middle is labeled New Zealand Nationals, and those on the right are Winchester Australia. The silver high brass is a mystery. It has a six star crimp and I seem to remember that being told they were imported from the UK. Did some CF shells get loaded in the UK?


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 Post subject: Re: Guide to Straight Wall Hulls
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:50 pm 
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aussieblackduck wrote:
Quote:
When you really look at it, most of the shotgunners in the world may have never seen a real Remington Unibody or Winchester CF hull.


(I know this thread is primarily about two piece hulls but given that, I thought many might be interested in this:)

Very true, but Winchester Australia actually made the Compression Formed Hull in this country for many years. AFAIK they continued to do so for a year or few after they were discontinued in the USA.
Perhaps you may find it surprising that the Winchester CF hull was also sold to ICI/IMI Eley during the '70's and '80's for loading with Eley brand names (incredibly, in competition with Winchesters own offerings!). Winchester Australia and Eley also loaded CF shells under other brand names in in other colours as well, including Beretta, Browning.
It is my understanding that the Aussie made Winchesters and Eleys made it in large numbers to New Zealand, and perhaps to other Oceania markets. Winchester Australia, at least until recently, sent shipments to Japan as well. I would assume, but can't confirm, they were also CF shells.

Some examples:

Image

The shells on the left are Eley variants, The red on in the middle is labeled New Zealand Nationals, and those on the right are Winchester Australia. The silver high brass is a mystery. It has a six star crimp and I seem to remember that being told they were imported from the UK. Did some CF shells get loaded in the UK?

Thanks, that was a very interesting and informative post.

I had known that Winchester products, and supposedly Hornady, were widely available in Australia and New Zealand, though I remember something about short supplies at times because the distributor was in NZ. You probably know better than I the specific details.

It's cool to see the odd colors and markings, that's a nice collection you have.


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 Post subject: Re: Guide to Straight Wall Hulls
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 10:11 am 
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I'm pretty sure the Challenger shells are loaded with Cheddite hulls. I know the 28 ga and .410s are, or at least are identical to the Cheddite hulls that were used to load the original Estate shells loaded in Willis , Texas prior to acquisition by Federal. The 28 ga have 28 stamped on the base of the hull at quadrants. Stars on the base of a hull are not absolute indicators of Cheddite hulls either. They may or may not have 2 or 4 stars, maybe even none as in the Challengers. Some years ago I dissected a few Challengers and compared them to dissected Cheddite/Estate hulls. Other than the plastic color and the head stamp they were identical.

Worrying about who's Eurotrash hull is who's is kind of a moot point. Treat them all the same when loading them regardless of brand on the hull or base and you'll be fine. If one has a higher base wad than the other, use a shorter wad or more dense powder, or maybe both. For lack of Eurotrash hull data, use Federal Gold Medal data, close enough.

geometric is absolutely correct regarding the Remington hulls. People have been referring to the STS/Gun Clubs as "tapered wall" hulls for a long time. In reality they are not. They are a straight wall hull with an integral molded in base wad with a curved profile to it. In performance not so much different than the AAHS hull except the AAHS hull has a separate base wad. I've been saying that for a long time and been shot down for saying that. Dissect a few and examine them for yourself. It becomes very clear that the profile of the hull body is vastly different than the true tapered CFAA hull. Put the wad in at the point where it sits atop the powder and see what it looks like right there. That's where the hull profile starts. An AAHS hull is probably more like a tapered hull than the STS/Gun Club. 12 ga only.

Is this all important? Probably not so much since you can use most any wad in either the AAHS, STS, or a straight wall hull. A straight wall hull wad fits better in an STS hull than a tapered wall hull wad, and a tapered wall hull fits better in an AAHS hull than a straight wall hull. But, in most applications either will work pretty much satisfactory in either hull style. If you get anal like me, you'll cut hulls and see which wad fits the hull profile the best and use it. That's why I have probably 15 or more 12 ga wads in my stock just from fitting them in the hulls I want to use. I've pretty much settled on the DR XL-1 wad in all my AA and Remington hulls and I rarely load any straight wall hulls any more. I've no need to but when I do, I've got Claybuster Federal clone wads and some Windjammers that seem to fit them pretty well. I can even use my Remington and XL-1s in a pinch, if I needed to. Not to mention Green Dusters, and various other AA and AA clone wads from Claybuster and OEM WWs.

So much for that, I've got other things to do today than worry about hulls and what they look like. Cut some apart and see for yourself. I do.

BP

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 Post subject: Re: Guide to Straight Wall Hulls
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 3:03 pm 
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I think we all have better things to do. It is not that big a deal anyway. We all seem to know of wads that work well in hulls that we load. Some wads may work that are commonly thought not to. I hope I didn't aggravate you guys too much.


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 Post subject: Re: Guide to Straight Wall Hulls
PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 2:05 pm 
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I have a potato sack of Activ 12g hulls in various colors. I have read these should be treated as a SW hull, and use loading data for a Federal (GM?). What are your opinions on this?


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 Post subject: Re: Guide to Straight Wall Hulls
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 1:45 am 
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barretcreek wrote:
I have a potato sack of Activ 12g hulls in various colors. I have read these should be treated as a SW hull, and use loading data for a Federal (GM?). What are your opinions on this?

Are your Activ 12g hulls "all" plastic (no exposed brass), or the ones with exposed brass head stamps (which look like a regular hull) ?


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 Post subject: Re: Guide to Straight Wall Hulls
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:08 am 
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They are the all plastic type, some red and some yellowish tan.


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 Post subject: Re: Guide to Straight Wall Hulls
PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 9:16 pm 
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Update to add the "Supreme" hulls that started showing up (and sold at Walmart). They appear to be Rio's :

Image
Image
Image

But if you look ever so closely, the second step in the base wad is slightly different. Still a Rio.


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 Post subject: Re: Guide to Straight Wall Hulls
PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 4:40 pm 
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I loaded up several batches of those red Supreme Hulls and used Fiocchi 616 primers. I shot them with a Remington 1100 and noticed that on every single one of the hulls the primer was backed out 1/3 or more when I inspected them after shooting. This has never happened to me in any type of Euro Hull before and I have loaded probably every SW hull that's out there at least once by now.

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 Post subject: Re: Guide to Straight Wall Hulls
PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 5:39 pm 
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HogRider357 wrote:
I loaded up several batches of those red Supreme Hulls and used Fiocchi 616 primers. I shot them with a Remington 1100 and noticed that on every single one of the hulls the primer was backed out 1/3 or more when I inspected them after shooting. This has never happened to me in any type of Euro Hull before and I have loaded probably every SW hull that's out there at least once by now.

That very interesting. I am using NS 209 I'm mine with no issues.

Are you able to push them back in with just finger pressure?


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 Post subject: Re: Guide to Straight Wall Hulls
PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 5:55 pm 
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As I stated in another post, the Suprema I disassembled had a .245 dia. primer in it, AKA Rio Primer.


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 Post subject: Re: Guide to Straight Wall Hulls
PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:17 pm 
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Republican wrote:
Update to add the "Supreme" hulls that started showing up (and sold at Walmart). They appear to be Rio's :
Image

But if you look ever so closely, the second step in the base wad is slightly different. Still a Rio.

Not to get off topic, but what are you using to get those clean cuts?


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 Post subject: Re: Guide to Straight Wall Hulls
PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 8:42 pm 
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The Fiocchi 616 was sitting firmly as it should since it is made to fit the oversize Euro shells perfectly. I have loaded RIO hulls with the 616 primer and never had one back out.

I have no idea as why it happened with the Supreme hull.



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